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Reply 60 of 116, by badmojo

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The camera is very important to a lot of people I know, it’s how they document their lives. I know I treasure all of the snaps / videos of my kids and I wouldn’t have most of those if it weren’t for my phone - I don’t get around with a camera in my pocket. This thread also makes me think of the outrage caused by Apple dropping the headphone jack, but now I see so many people getting around with wireless earbuds and it looks really practical to me - wires are such a pain in the bum.

If it's broke, then fix it!

Reply 61 of 116, by Bruninho

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badmojo wrote:

The camera is very important to a lot of people I know, it’s how they document their lives. I know I treasure all of the snaps / videos of my kids and I wouldn’t have most of those if it weren’t for my phone - I don’t get around with a camera in my pocket. This thread also makes me think of the outrage caused by Apple dropping the headphone jack, but now I see so many people getting around with wireless earbuds and it looks really practical to me - wires are such a pain in the bum.

One thing is bluetooth instead of headphone jack - I agreed with the headphone jack drop when they did it first, I was never a fan of cables and more cables plugged into a device. But other thing is three cameras in a phone, something not necessary and an overkill. Your comparison shows two different things. One is removing something in favour of a "not so new" technology, other is an addition of more and more cameras in a phone, not a new technology.

For me, "LESS IS MORE".

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.

Reply 62 of 116, by Bruninho

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ShovelKnight wrote:

Poor Apple, they just can't win. When they make beautiful things, people scold them for prioritising form over function, now they finally released a thicker phone with significantly increased battery life and much improved cameras and people are slamming them for prioritising function over form 🤣

Apple has always bragged about increased battery life in every iPhone release, but the truth is for me it never changed, the life was always the same for me. I start my day at around 8am and end it at around 11pm. I still have 20% or less power left in it.

I never complained for making the phone thinner, but I always complained about the bigger screens. my favourite iPhone form factor size was the iPhone 4S.

And, "much improved cameras"? Really? I see no improvement in it. More cameras does not equal an improvement. What I wanted from an iPhone was exactly an upgraded iPhone 4S, and Apple failed to deliver it. When they did the iPhone SE they got closer, but not enough for me. One camera is enough for a phone - as long as it can take a cristal clear photo, it's enough. Leave the pro photos for professional cameras.

So, three cameras, what next for 2020? four cameras and a cooktop to make your dinner when you're stuck in the middle of a road traffic?

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.

Reply 63 of 116, by schmatzler

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appiah4 wrote:

Totally unimpressed. I would be back to Android in the blink of an eye if the company didn't force me to use the iOS environment (and supply me with the phone).

I work in a company where I'm the only person without an Apple device.

It all depends on how you can sell to your boss that you are much more productive without overpriced hardware.
Turns out it's pretty easy.

(Probably doesn't work in super-big corporations, though.)

Reply 64 of 116, by Bruninho

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schmatzler wrote:
I work in a company where I'm the only person without an Apple device. […]
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appiah4 wrote:

Totally unimpressed. I would be back to Android in the blink of an eye if the company didn't force me to use the iOS environment (and supply me with the phone).

I work in a company where I'm the only person without an Apple device.

It all depends on how you can sell to your boss that you are much more productive without overpriced hardware.
Turns out it's pretty easy.

(Probably doesn't work in super-big corporations, though.)

It’s a question of what you are used to. For example I am much more productive in a macOS environment than Windows or Linux. I can do my work in all three environments for sure, the result is the same in the end, but the secret really is your workflow. How fast you are in a certain environment and the way you work in it (fluidity). In a mac I can be quicker than I am in a Windows. I was a Windows user until 2009 and never looked back after my first mac in 2010. The apps I can find in a mac I could also find similar for Windows? Yes. But they are not exactly similar. In a mac I like to use Panic Coda for my web work, I have a workflow there that I am used to and works well for me. In a Windows I would have to use VS Code - a completely different experience, I’d have to alter my workflow to fit in it. At the end of the day, you are right: It all depends on how well you can sell to your boss that you are much more productive in environment X than Y.

I was lucky that my actual boss understands that and has set a macbook for me on first day.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.

Reply 67 of 116, by ZellSF

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Kerr Avon wrote:

It's not baseless at all. I have the opinions of people I have spoken to or overheard, and the opinions and wishes I've read on various forums

I have that too.

I also have the knowledge of what the people with better data than me prioritize (mobile manufacturers) .

Plus a quick Google search also gives me much more data than either of us two have.

They all point to a simple fact: the quality of the camera is very important to almost as many people as the battery is. The battery is not the only thing that's important to "most people".

Kerr Avon wrote:

Business is about making money. Where there is money there is corruption, and often lies and deceit. And if the multi-billionaire phone companies, electrical component manufacturers, the silicon chip manufacturers, etc, want to point the market a certain way, do you honestly believe that they wouldn't 'grease the wheels', so to speak, of some of the people/businesses who control the direction of public spending?

Being distrustful of anyone, especially huge companies is fine, but it needs to be paired with logical reasoning. Otherwise it's just stupidity. You haven't provided any logical reasoning for why companies focus so much on cameras when you seem to think almost no one wants them.

Reply 68 of 116, by ShovelKnight

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For what it’s worth, every time I’m at a concert, in the botanic gardens or generally in a more or less touristy place, I see crowds — literally crowds — of people taking photos and videos with their phones. I would assume camera quality matters to them.

In my opinion, an average consumer cares about 3 things in their phone: battery life, camera, performance.

Reply 69 of 116, by Bruninho

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I still can't see an argument to defend three useless cameras for simple people with a smartphone. While I still think Apple could just sell them separately as an add-on for the iPhone 11 Pro and still keep the phone "beautiful" instead of selling it with an ugly cooktop look alike..

Yes, I despise the new model because it's ugly. Judge me, I am a designer. I can't use or endorse ugly things. The 11 model is the stupidest thing Apple did since I follow them. Worse than the Mac Pro "Cheese Crater" case. Who is their new designer? I still cannot believe they have hired someone worse than Jony Ive.

EDIT: And performance wise, I still think the X model is good enough. I see no huge performance improvements with the 11 model to make me "sell some organ of my body" to buy it, as we can see Apple tends to be extremely expensive with new models. The X model I have will last for years.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.

Reply 70 of 116, by SirNickity

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Half of your argument is based on the fallacy that Apple can, needs to, or is even trying to create a phone every year that is SO much better than the one they sold last year, that you feel compelled to upgrade. The entire tech reporting industry is so hyper-fascinated with the iPhone release drama that wholly unrealistic expectations get set, and then there's inevitable disappointment when the new model isn't quite the revolution it was made up to be. It's never going to be, not unless some underlying technology emerges that is, itself, revolutionary -- and, critically, ready for mass consumer adoption.

I mean, OF COURSE the 11 isn't a mandatory upgrade from an X. The X is still a recent model device. It's like complaining that Intel did a crap job with the Pentium 166 because your Pentium 133 is almost exactly as good. Yeah. Duh. It's not for you. It's for the dude rocking a 386 that has decided it's time to upgrade. Same for the iPhone 11. I have a 6 -- it's about time for me to upgrade. The 11 is for people like me, not you -- unless you just want to always roll up to the latest and take advantage of trade-in value. Then, hey, whatever.

And are you seriously advocating that it's a good idea to have rivet-sized lenses as a detachable accessory to a phone? It's fine if you don't want or like the new camera. But, seriously... you think it's a good idea to tell people, "hey, if you want more flexibility in your field of view, just whup out your tweezers and change the lens"? I think practically any layperson would much rather not deal with that. The iPhone isn't an SLR, it's not made for serious photographers. (Although the samples I've seen are so good that you could get close enough for most people, most of the time.)

You don't have to like it. I'm not interested in convincing you to like it. But I think you are being irrational about this and extrapolating your lack of interest in, at best, a modest upgrade to the needs and wants of consumers in general.

Reply 71 of 116, by Bruninho

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SirNickity wrote:

And are you seriously advocating that it's a good idea to have rivet-sized lenses as a detachable accessory to a phone? It's fine if you don't want or like the new camera. But, seriously... you think it's a good idea to tell people, "hey, if you want more flexibility in your field of view, just whup out your tweezers and change the lens"? I think practically any layperson would much rather not deal with that. The iPhone isn't an SLR, it's not made for serious photographers. (Although the samples I've seen are so good that you could get close enough for most people, most of the time.)

Yes, I'm serious. Not every iPhone owner is a professional photographer. Heck, most of them don't even know how to take a photo properly. It's like giving a AK-47 to a civil instead a military army soldier. The civil won't know absolutely nothing about how to use it. And yes, it's ugly, ugly, ugly. As a designer, I defend strongly that these lenses should've been made detachable, for a more beautiful phone AND to give these lenses to people that really need them (photographers).

Since Job's death, Apple has been doing some serious shitty and ugly devices. I still cannot accept the X model two camera lenses style and never will. This is the reason why I want to "downgrade" to a XR model with 1 camera only ("downgrade" as in, I have a X 256GB model and the XR only has 128GB, but that's fine, I haven't even used 32GB yet).

"The iPhone isn't a SLR, it's not made for serious photographers"

Yeah, at least we agree with something. Then why the f... Apple did a 11 Pro with three cameras? When their users don't even know how to use each one of these three useless lenses at least? Most of them will take photos using the first camera available of three, or don't even know how to switch them or how to use them for each scenario. For me, they are useless, keyword: FOR ME! I don't need them.

But then you could think and say to me: OK, then don't get the Pro model with 3 cameras, get the 11 standard model... but wait, the 11 standard is still terrible for me - two cameras and an ugly square around them. As a designer I can't stand this badly designed phone. I'll just keep my X or move to a XR model.

I wasn't thinking you wanted to convince me of anything. I was just stating that as a designer, I can't stand the new 11 designs around the cameras and the need for three cameras in a phone. THREE!!! Man, three cameras is overkill. That's my point - 90% of the iPhone owners don't need three cameras because they simply don't know how to operate them.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.

Reply 72 of 116, by SirNickity

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I could be wrong, because I haven't tried an 11 yet, but my understanding is that the user doesn't need to know how to use three cameras. They just manipulate the image with common pinch gestures and UI widgets, and it composes the shot using one (or a combination of?) the lenses. You get the advantage of having multiple lenses without having to know how to take advantage of them.

The only other option, while retaining the ability to zoom in and out, would've been to make a deeper lens that had a moving element. Moving parts being one strike against it, complexity being another, and size being a third. Having three simple, relatively low-cost lenses is a pretty elegant solution to giving laypersons the ability to take shots with more flexibility than they could before, without having to resort to cropping / digital zoom. Small sensors are cheap. Why not? From an aesthetic point, I don't entirely disagree, but I don't think it's quite the blight you do -- and consumers will commit far worse atrocities with their bedazzled cases anyway.

Reply 73 of 116, by Bruninho

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I stopped reading on “elegant solution.” Stop. Just stop

There’s nothing elegant in three cameras on a smartphone.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.

Reply 75 of 116, by Bruninho

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badmojo wrote:
https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/019/304/old.jpg […]
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bfcastello wrote:

There’s nothing elegant in three cameras on a smartphone.

old.jpg

There you go. Enjoy your cooktop...

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"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.

Reply 76 of 116, by appiah4

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3 camera lenses does indeed look like shit.

Also, my dad's Huawei phone can take better pictures than any iphone I've ever had despite having a single lens.

Finally, although phone cameras are quite possibly the most inflential decision point for the average consumers, fuck phone cameras. Nothing, especially no one, that I take a photo of using a phone camera from the last five years or so, looks like the thing actually does in real life. All these AI assisted filter shit you can't turn off are intolerable to me.

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Reply 77 of 116, by badmojo

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bfcastello wrote:

There you go. Enjoy your cooktop...

I like cooktops! You could try working this angle though: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/09 … -lenses-camera/

I'd never heard of trypophobia before but I do have arachnophobia, and those lenses do remind me of spider eyes 😖

7853654_f520.jpg

If it's broke, then fix it!

Reply 79 of 116, by dr_st

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ShovelKnight wrote:

The amount of vitriol in this thread is unbelievable.

Yes, it is almost impossible to have any kind of discussion about Apple products without vitriol.

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