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Is anyone excited for Big Navi?

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Reply 140 of 258, by liqmat

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Shagittarius wrote on 2020-10-11, 15:56:

Now that the Xbox and PS are going to have ray tracing cross platform games (all the major 1st party games) will support it and it will increasingly become a reason to buy a card with Ray tracing capabilities. Also when AMD gets their implementation out most of the fanboys will stop putting it down and start talking about how amazing it is.

Exactly. Let's be honest, realtime raytracing has been a dream in gaming for decades ever since we started seeing it on consumer grade computers like the Amiga and early Macs back in the 1980s. Of course back then every frame took many minutes to hours to render.

Reply 141 of 258, by Almoststew1990

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Shagittarius wrote on 2020-10-11, 15:56:

Now that the Xbox and PS are going to have ray tracing cross platform games (all the major 1st party games) will support it and it will increasingly become a reason to buy a card with Ray tracing capabilities. Also when AMD gets their implementation out most of the fanboys will stop putting it down and start talking about how amazing it is.

I'm cautious about how much consoles are going to use Ray Tracing. They'll already be compromising resolution or frame rates depending on the game / what direction they want to take so now add a third factor of Ray Tracing. Don't forget that the PS360 gen was touted as the HD gen when really it was 720p or less, the PS4bone was touted as 4k capable (which it is) but I don't know of any games that actually run at 4k (haven't bought a PS4 game in a couple of years now). With these consoles marketed as 4k (or even 8k) and ray tracing and 120fps, something (a lot of things) will have to give to fit all that into a £500 low wattage machine.

I'm sure RT is amazing and I started this thread because I wanted a 3080 with RT but I don't see the consoles as some kind of magic catalyst for unleashing ray tracing

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Reply 142 of 258, by Hanamichi

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Stew makes some good points about the realistic capability of the PS5 and Xbox, Navi may be good but it's not magical.
I would love for this hardware accelerated raytracing hype to be real but it smells of Physx right now and that criticism is NVIDIA/AMD agnostic.

Think of the main game engines:

Unreal Engine 4 has implemented hybrid ray tracing and is still rasterization (have you seen the quality of Fortnite RTX: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e898DYUnRM)
Unreal Engine 5 uses it's own approximate ray tracing technique, compatible with any modern video card.
Unity 2019 seems to have a preview of ray casting built in.
Crytek has their Neon Noir demo which is compatible with any video card and using basic cone tracing.
Microsoft are probably the ones pushing hardest but even then if you look into the details:
"DXR will initially be used to supplement current rendering techniques such as screen space reflections, for example, to fill in data from geometry that’s either occluded or off-screen. "
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/announ … ctx-raytracing/
Control's engine the poster for RTX demonstrates leileilol's point perfectly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6c2Ngijn_c

So when people hear the hype about proper ray tracing coming in the near future (which would be awesome), the current list of fully ray traced games they can look forward to includes:

Minecraft
Quake II

I hope things improve 😀

Reply 143 of 258, by Shagittarius

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I think that's a bit harsh, It's like deciding in 1980 that if you can't get your video card to run at 4k resolutions your just going to not care. It's really silly to reduce ray tracing to an all or nothing argument, personally I find the incomplete implementations quite wonderful as well, and now since the cards are truly affordable there's no reason for people not to embrace it. I don't care how long the cheapskates want to hang onto their outdated hardware, the future moves on.

Reply 144 of 258, by Hanamichi

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Shagittarius wrote on 2020-10-11, 20:01:

I think that's a bit harsh, It's like deciding in 1980 that if you can't get your video card to run at 4k resolutions your just going to not care. It's really silly to reduce ray tracing to an all or nothing argument, personally I find the incomplete implementations quite wonderful as well, and now since the cards are truly affordable there's no reason for people not to embrace it. I don't care how long the cheapskates want to hang onto their outdated hardware, the future moves on.

Yeah.. I guess you took offense to my complaint about the branding of ray tracing vs reality. You shouldn't be offended because it was not aimed at your 3090 purchase. The card is a beast so enjoy it.
The traditional idea of raytracing is every beam of light is traced with all corresponding interactions, so I think it's fair to expect to the official definition in practice. (accuracy adjusted for acceptable performance)

Funny you mention 4k, I was an early adopter of 4k in the 2000s. Prefer a CRT from the 1980s sometimes 😜

Might want to think about the cheapskate comment again. Because someone doesn't upgrade on your schedule?

Reply 145 of 258, by Bruninho

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I am a cheapskate and I see nothing wrong in hanging onto our old hardware. I buy what I NEED, not what “is the future” just because “its the future!” I don’t have the need to “show off my amazing machine” the way you do, so you probably have some personal stuff to deal with if you need to do it.

It’s literally like if you had bought a 2020 Ferrari and shows off while I go past you with a 1970s rebuilt Hemi Barracuda from a scrapyard. It’s not the car, it’s the driver. The driver knows best what he needs in a car.

These 3000 series literally have the price of a powerful enough notebook for the games everyone in this thread want to play. These prices are unacceptable even if you can afford them (I can afford them, just don’t want to). Its simply a case of being SMARTER with your money. I am smarter than you in this case!

Maybe in 10 years I can consider buying a 3000 series if it gets cheap enough and I find the need to play any game that requires such power, but as of now a 2014 GTX 750 is enough for all my favorite games. Any GFX card for more than 90 USD is totally unacceptable just for a game.

Be smarter my friends, not stupid. What next? A RTX 6000 series for 4000 USD? While you all keep buying them, the prices will keep raising. The only way to keep them down is sticking to your current hardware for longer.

<facepalm/>

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.

Reply 146 of 258, by Shagittarius

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Bruhino your reply reveals your envy. You think I'm 'Showing Off' my rig, because you are jealous, this is what people do who can't get what they want, they lie to themselves. I'm reporting your post for calling me stupid.

Reply 147 of 258, by Bruninho

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I’m not even 1% jealous. I don’t need a 3000 card and even if I were gifted one, I’d sell for double the price straight away because there are people stupid enough to pay for it.

I already told you many times that I can afford any of these cards, I just do not want because I do not need them and I am not stupid to pay the price of a Dell XPS computer in a single GFX card. I rest my case here. Y’all can go on drooling over them, I won’t. I don’t play any game that requires a such GFX so why on earth I’d be jealous if I can even afford any computer you want to build? 🙄

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.

Reply 148 of 258, by Shagittarius

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Bruninho wrote on 2020-10-12, 15:27:

I’m not even 1% jealous. I don’t need a 3000 card and even if I were gifted one, I’d sell for double the price straight away because there are people stupid enough to pay for it.

I already told you many times that I can afford any of these cards, I just do not want because I do not need them and I am not stupid to pay the price of a Dell XPS computer in a single GFX card. I rest my case here. Y’all can go on drooling over them, I won’t. I don’t play any game that requires a such GFX so why on earth I’d be jealous if I can even afford any computer you want to build? 🙄

Well its sounding like maybe you have NDS, NVidia Derangement Syndrome. I believe they are releasing a really affordable 3070 which is equal to power of a 2080ti, I think that's what's been reported, at a celebrated price, so the claim that us early adopter enthusiasts are driving up prices doesn't seem to work out. The 3090 are for a very small segment of the community who are willing to pay the price for that card, and there's something going on with you if you feel the need to berate people for it, for whatever reason you have decided on.

Reply 149 of 258, by Bruninho

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These prices are not affordable. For literally nobody in this world.

“Nvidia derangement syndrome” WTF 🤣 look what you are saying!

I don’t give a damn to what brand a GFX has as long as its affordable and gives the expected benefits for each cent spent on it. Like, literally.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.

Reply 150 of 258, by Shagittarius

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No one can afford $499 for what was a top tier card a generation ago? I'm glad I don't live in the world you do. And I think you just proved NDS exists.

I imagine you also must dislike Apple too right? For charging a premium on their products? No one puts more of a premium on their products than Apple.

Reply 152 of 258, by Shagittarius

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I'm not trolling, I'm presenting facts, which he ignores and makes up lies to defend his position, he is trolling. He should be banned from these forums.

I can't believe I'm on a computer enthusiast forum where people can't stand people talking about and getting excited for new tech.

Reply 154 of 258, by Bruninho

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I’m not even trolling. I am not a troll, and I hate trolls. He is. Calling me by names, insulting. Accusing me of lying. Clearly he is the troll here.

I am totally in favor of new technologies, but not for the price they charge for them. So far he has failed to defend why I or we should pay such prices for these new GFX cards. Instead he resorted to insulting me, implying that I have some sort of a stupid “NDS disorder”. Come on. This is a forum. It’s supposed to be a debate. Show me some good argument for a BRL $3000 GFX card instead of an insult.

As for Apple devices, just in case you don’t know (or keep forgetting apparently), I could afford the newest iPhone or MacBook Pro, but I still use a 2017 iPhone, 2009 iMac and 2013 MacBook Pro, both SECOND HAND computers, not brand new, and I paid less than Apple charged for them when they were released. I bought the 2013 MBP last year. It’s still good enough for my everyday usage, and my games, so why should I buy a 2020 MBP? Seems that you have another failed argument against my point, right?

Its him who should be banned for these insults. I am still waiting for his argument to defend the prices NVIDIA is charging for these GFX cards. I have absolutely nothing against how good these cards can be. I just cannot see or defend the prices charged for them. Come on. I cannot believe people really want to pay the price of a computer for them! What the hell is wrong in this world? I can’t be the only one wrong here!

I really believe the prices of these new cards that we are talking about in this thread must be discussed. It’s a point about them that is of interest here.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.

Reply 156 of 258, by ZellSF

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Bruninho wrote on 2020-10-12, 19:16:

I really believe the prices of these new cards that we are talking about in this thread must be discussed. It’s a point about them that is of interest here.

If there's anything you want to know, then ask.

Reply 157 of 258, by Bruninho

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ZellSF wrote on 2020-10-12, 19:54:
Bruninho wrote on 2020-10-12, 19:16:

I really believe the prices of these new cards that we are talking about in this thread must be discussed. It’s a point about them that is of interest here.

If there's anything you want to know, then ask.

Fair enough. Heres a question. Which features of these new cards can justify their expensive price, for games like first person shooters, sim racing and e-sports games?

And another: Why the need to buy a gfx card with that much power, if currently there are no games that require its FULL POWER to use? I can’t think of any game that needs the amount of memory that the 3080 (10GB) and 3090 (24GB) provides.

Because I can see other less powerful but yet cheaper options from nvidia itself and AMD that can deliver good enough graphics x performance to justify the investment made to get the graphics you all want to pay for.

I think I have a good argument (and good advice too) when I say to buy exactly what you need for your game (or games), and for a fair price. Maybe in 3 or 5 years, when these games (thanks to their BAD developers) require such powerful Gfx cards, then you will need to buy a 3080 or 3090, but then maybe the prices will drop for them with newer generation being released. I just ask myself “do I need it? Is it good enough for my game? Is it a fair price to pay, from a cost/benefit point of view?”

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.

Reply 158 of 258, by Snover

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Hi everyone.

While it is OK to hold and express strong opinions, and to argue them forcefully, please do not make your arguments in a way which insults others. “I find this completely outrageous and wrong, and I don’t understand why everyone doesn’t agree” is OK. “I find this completely outrageous and wrong, and if you don’t think so, you are stupid” is not OK. Accusing people of acting in bad faith (i.e. saying someone is a troll) or of having a disorder for having different values is also not OK. If you think that someone is not acting in good faith, and you’re not able to engage them without including some personal attack, please simply flag the message instead.

In order for VOGONS to be a safe space for the free exchange of ideas, participants must respect others’ opinions and assume good faith. When that does not happen, topics devolve into shouting matches and then are closed, and everyone is deprived of the ability to share their thoughts. We all have different values, but one value that everyone here shares is an interest in technology and a desire to talk about it, so please focus on that shared value instead of derailing this topic (or any topic) with personal attacks. Thanks!

Yes, it’s my fault.