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Reply 60 of 84, by psychz

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About time... Wasn't Win10 unbearably slow with mech HDD since at least last year's updates anyway? I recall constant 100% I/O in taskmgr after bootup right after a clean install

Stojke wrote:

Its not like components found in trash after 20 years in rain dont still work flawlessly.

:: chemical reaction :: athens in love || reality is absent || spectrality || meteoron || the lie you believe

Reply 61 of 84, by Jo22

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BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-06-13, 18:07:

Does Windows 11 support MFM drives?

Maybe?

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Reply 62 of 84, by ratfink

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bakemono wrote on 2022-06-10, 21:54:

I've never used an SSD or felt the need to get one, but it does look like the prices have come down to where the modestly sized ones are attractive compared to HDDs.

Kind of in the same boat. I use 10 on a system with 4 or 5 hard drives, mostly 500gb or 1TB. Periodically it takes a long time from turning on to be usable (I guess Windows Update is the culprit), but usually it's good enough (and good enough means no action required in my book). Software boots fine, runs fine (and when it takes time I dont think it's the hard drives). I even have a couple of SSDs I bought for other purposes last year but never used, in a drawer; no real compulsion to put them in the PC yet.

Reply 63 of 84, by ZellSF

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psychz wrote on 2022-06-14, 08:21:

About time... Wasn't Win10 unbearably slow with mech HDD since at least last year's updates anyway? I recall constant 100% I/O in taskmgr after bootup right after a clean install

Well after a clean install Windows is still doing work. If you get 100% I/O when your Windows 10 PC is idle, I would suspect the drive is starting to fail. Or it's a SMR drive you've you just done an excessive amount of writes to.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2022-06-14, 05:01:

I would only use a SSD with modern computers as TRIM (which improves the life span) is only supported since Windows 7 without having to rely on a third-party utility.

TRIM's purpose is increasing write speeds, not improving life span.

Regardless of that, worrying about SSD lifespan is not really rational, please do the math on how much money you're saving.

You can just use SSDs as regular HDDs.

Reply 64 of 84, by psychz

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ZellSF wrote on 2022-06-14, 11:27:

Well after a clean install Windows is still doing work. If you get 100% I/O when your Windows 10 PC is idle, I would suspect the drive is starting to fail. Or it's a SMR drive you've you just done an excessive amount of writes to.

Not really, ever tried to install any version of Win10 after Creator's update to a laptop with a 5400rpm HDD? I don't doubt it can be usable after disabling services, e.g. indexing etc., but out of the box it isn't

Stojke wrote:

Its not like components found in trash after 20 years in rain dont still work flawlessly.

:: chemical reaction :: athens in love || reality is absent || spectrality || meteoron || the lie you believe

Reply 65 of 84, by ZellSF

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psychz wrote on 2022-06-14, 11:29:
ZellSF wrote on 2022-06-14, 11:27:

Well after a clean install Windows is still doing work. If you get 100% I/O when your Windows 10 PC is idle, I would suspect the drive is starting to fail. Or it's a SMR drive you've you just done an excessive amount of writes to.

Not really, ever tried to install any version of Win10 after Creator's update to a laptop with a 5400rpm HDD? I don't doubt it can be usable after disabling services, e.g. indexing etc., but out of the box it isn't

I mean, indexing is a service that only runs occasionally, so that just supports what I said that it's probably still doing post-install work.

I've seen Windows 10 run nicely on 5400 RPM drives. Not that I would ever use it, but 100% HDD usage wasn't happening.

Reply 66 of 84, by ratfink

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We had that 100% usage problem for like 20 minutes (it felt like) every time my daughters cheap HP laptop booted up. I have a feeling we had to kill processes at every boot and even then it was hopeless.

Reply 67 of 84, by TrashPanda

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-06-13, 17:30:

Well, I guess you can still roll Windows 11 with 15k SAS 2.5 inch HDD, maybe even with second or third gen Velociraptor. Won't be quiet much though.

Honestly .. thats the whole point of still running them drives .. the freaking racket they make, especially Raptors in raid, there really isn't any good reason to run such a setup for retro or even modern PCs.

Though I guess you could make a case for the 15k sas drives . .same for the 1tb raptors, but them 15k sas drives are damn noisy wouldn't actually want them in a 24/7 machine in my home.

Oh noes, the cap let the shmooo out 😁

Reply 68 of 84, by dr_st

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TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-14, 12:15:

Honestly .. thats the whole point of still running them drives .. the freaking racket they make, especially Raptors in raid

None can compete with my IBM DeskStar 120GXP!

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Reply 69 of 84, by TrashPanda

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dr_st wrote on 2022-06-14, 12:33:
TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-14, 12:15:

Honestly .. thats the whole point of still running them drives .. the freaking racket they make, especially Raptors in raid

None can compete with my IBM DeskStar 120GXP!

You mean IBM DEATHSTAR !!

I have 5 1tb raptors in raid ...also have 4 15k 70gb scsi drives in my file server ...I need more adaptors so I can add another 4.

Oh noes, the cap let the shmooo out 😁

Reply 70 of 84, by dr_st

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TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-14, 12:39:
dr_st wrote on 2022-06-14, 12:33:
TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-14, 12:15:

Honestly .. thats the whole point of still running them drives .. the freaking racket they make, especially Raptors in raid

None can compete with my IBM DeskStar 120GXP!

You mean IBM DEATHSTAR !!

Actually, no. It's the 75GXP which were Deathstars, IIRC. 😀

My 120GXP is still alive and working *knock-on-wood*. It's ~20 years old. It's the oldest working part in that old PC. 🤣

https://cloakedthargoid.wordpress.com/ - Random content on hardware, software, games and toys

Reply 71 of 84, by Gmlb256

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ZellSF wrote on 2022-06-14, 11:27:

TRIM's purpose is increasing write speeds, not improving life span.

Well, any storage device that uses flash memory (including SSD) suffers from write amplification. TRIM attempts to minimize this.

Regardless of that, worrying about SSD lifespan is not really rational, please do the math on how much money you're saving.

You're right, it is not a rational thought. Since SSDs lack moving parts, they consume much less power and run cooler. As of 2022, the only thing a regular HDD has going for it is price per GB.

Reply 72 of 84, by TrashPanda

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Gmlb256 wrote on 2022-06-14, 12:52:
Well, any storage device that uses flash memory (including SSD) suffers from write amplification. TRIM attempts to minimize this […]
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ZellSF wrote on 2022-06-14, 11:27:

TRIM's purpose is increasing write speeds, not improving life span.

Well, any storage device that uses flash memory (including SSD) suffers from write amplification. TRIM attempts to minimize this.

Regardless of that, worrying about SSD lifespan is not really rational, please do the math on how much money you're saving.

You're right, it is not a rational thought. Since SSDs lack moving parts, they consume much less power and run cooler. As of 2022, the only thing a regular HDD has going for it is price per GB.

SSDs are slowly catching up on capacity but will never likely be as cheap as spinning rust .. and with spinning rust set to balloon out to 50tb by years end I think SSDs may never be mass storage for the average consumer. (My 8tb SSD cost 2k mid last year I bet its more now with shortages and such)

Now that I think about it, I would hate to actually own a 25tb HDD ..imagine losing that much data.

Oh noes, the cap let the shmooo out 😁

Reply 73 of 84, by The Serpent Rider

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wouldn't actually want them in a 24/7 machine in my home.

No desktop computer is complete without HDD ASMR!

ZellSF wrote:

TRIM's purpose is increasing write speeds, not improving life span.

Actually both. The whole point of TRIM is to reduce unnecessary writes by marking occupied blocks with leftover data as free to use.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 74 of 84, by ZellSF

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Gmlb256 wrote on 2022-06-14, 12:52:
Well, any storage device that uses flash memory (including SSD) suffers from write amplification. TRIM attempts to minimize this […]
Show full quote
ZellSF wrote on 2022-06-14, 11:27:

TRIM's purpose is increasing write speeds, not improving life span.

Well, any storage device that uses flash memory (including SSD) suffers from write amplification. TRIM attempts to minimize this.

Regardless of that, worrying about SSD lifespan is not really rational, please do the math on how much money you're saving.

You're right, it is not a rational thought. Since SSDs lack moving parts, they consume much less power and run cooler. As of 2022, the only thing a regular HDD has going for it is price per GB.

I'm confused, are you changing your mind? That was a reply to you recommending not to use SSDs on OSes without TRIM, which is where I said avoiding SSDs was irrational.

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-14, 13:02:
Gmlb256 wrote on 2022-06-14, 12:52:
Well, any storage device that uses flash memory (including SSD) suffers from write amplification. TRIM attempts to minimize this […]
Show full quote
ZellSF wrote on 2022-06-14, 11:27:

TRIM's purpose is increasing write speeds, not improving life span.

Well, any storage device that uses flash memory (including SSD) suffers from write amplification. TRIM attempts to minimize this.

Regardless of that, worrying about SSD lifespan is not really rational, please do the math on how much money you're saving.

You're right, it is not a rational thought. Since SSDs lack moving parts, they consume much less power and run cooler. As of 2022, the only thing a regular HDD has going for it is price per GB.

SSDs are slowly catching up on capacity but will never likely be as cheap as spinning rust .. and with spinning rust set to balloon out to 50tb by years end I think SSDs may never be mass storage for the average consumer. (My 8tb SSD cost 2k mid last year I bet its more now with shortages and such)

Now that I think about it, I would hate to actually own a 25tb HDD ..imagine losing that much data.

I don't think anyone was suggesting using SSDs for storage of that magnitude. And I really doubt 50TB of storage even matters to the average consumer, so I'm not sure why you think that's changing anything.

8TB SSD is now 750$:
https://www.amazon.com/SAMSUNG-870-QVO-SATA-M … B/dp/B089C3TZL9
It's not a good SSD, but it offers fast reads, high shock resistance and low noise (three of the more important SSD attributes IMO). As far as I can see though, 8K SSDs weren't 2000$ last year, not even M.2 drives.

Also, losing data? Everything important to you should have a backup. Always. For 25TB drives I definitely would consider a more advanced solution than a single backup. Though my own storage setup seems to be quickly degrading to a single backup only...

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-06-14, 13:11:
ZellSF wrote:

TRIM's purpose is increasing write speeds, not improving life span.

Actually both. The whole point of TRIM is to reduce unnecessary writes by marking occupied blocks with leftover data as free to use.

For performance reasons; the lifespan reasons really aren't that significant.

Reply 75 of 84, by TrashPanda

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ZellSF wrote on 2022-06-14, 13:45:
I'm confused, are you changing your mind? That was a reply to you recommending not to use SSDs on OSes without TRIM, which is wh […]
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Gmlb256 wrote on 2022-06-14, 12:52:
Well, any storage device that uses flash memory (including SSD) suffers from write amplification. TRIM attempts to minimize this […]
Show full quote
ZellSF wrote on 2022-06-14, 11:27:

TRIM's purpose is increasing write speeds, not improving life span.

Well, any storage device that uses flash memory (including SSD) suffers from write amplification. TRIM attempts to minimize this.

Regardless of that, worrying about SSD lifespan is not really rational, please do the math on how much money you're saving.

You're right, it is not a rational thought. Since SSDs lack moving parts, they consume much less power and run cooler. As of 2022, the only thing a regular HDD has going for it is price per GB.

I'm confused, are you changing your mind? That was a reply to you recommending not to use SSDs on OSes without TRIM, which is where I said avoiding SSDs was irrational.

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-14, 13:02:
Gmlb256 wrote on 2022-06-14, 12:52:

Well, any storage device that uses flash memory (including SSD) suffers from write amplification. TRIM attempts to minimize this.

You're right, it is not a rational thought. Since SSDs lack moving parts, they consume much less power and run cooler. As of 2022, the only thing a regular HDD has going for it is price per GB.

SSDs are slowly catching up on capacity but will never likely be as cheap as spinning rust .. and with spinning rust set to balloon out to 50tb by years end I think SSDs may never be mass storage for the average consumer. (My 8tb SSD cost 2k mid last year I bet its more now with shortages and such)

Now that I think about it, I would hate to actually own a 25tb HDD ..imagine losing that much data.

I don't think anyone was suggesting using SSDs for storage of that magnitude. And I really doubt 50TB of storage even matters to the average consumer, so I'm not sure why you think that's changing anything.

8TB SSD is now 750$:
https://www.amazon.com/SAMSUNG-870-QVO-SATA-M … B/dp/B089C3TZL9
It's not a good SSD, but it offers fast reads, high shock resistance and low noise (three of the more important SSD attributes IMO). As far as I can see though, 8K SSDs weren't 2000$ last year, not even M.2 drives.

Also, losing data? Everything important to you should have a backup. Always. For 25TB drives I definitely would consider a more advanced solution than a single backup. Though my own storage setup seems to be quickly degrading to a single backup only...

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-06-14, 13:11:
ZellSF wrote:

TRIM's purpose is increasing write speeds, not improving life span.

Actually both. The whole point of TRIM is to reduce unnecessary writes by marking occupied blocks with leftover data as free to use.

For performance reasons; the lifespan reasons really aren't that significant.

thats AUD not USD ...and it was $1999 so I guess thats not $2000

Right now I can grab a 4tb NVME for 1500 AUD ...so yea 8tb SSD was indeed 2000AUD mid last year, 8tb NVME was also $2000 AUD early this year but it was a rather slow NVME drive.

Last edited by TrashPanda on 2022-06-14, 14:02. Edited 2 times in total.

Oh noes, the cap let the shmooo out 😁

Reply 77 of 84, by TrashPanda

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ZellSF wrote on 2022-06-14, 13:59:

Not sure how you expected anyone to know that.

I dont expect people to assume USD either, its a huge world so most people dont but well . .there are exceptions.

Especially so when your own research suggests I wasn't talking about US prices.

Oh noes, the cap let the shmooo out 😁

Reply 78 of 84, by Gmlb256

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ZellSF wrote on 2022-06-14, 13:45:

I'm confused, are you changing your mind? That was a reply to you recommending not to use SSDs on OSes without TRIM, which is where I said avoiding SSDs was irrational.

Your reply made me rethink what I said considering that most people here used CompactFlash or SSD in old computers without much inconvenience.

Reply 79 of 84, by ZellSF

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TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-14, 13:59:
ZellSF wrote on 2022-06-14, 13:59:

Not sure how you expected anyone to know that.

I dont expect people to assume USD either, its a huge world so most people dont but well . .there are exceptions.

Especially so when your own research suggests I wasn't talking about US prices.

Most of the English speaking population is located in the US, so most people on an English forum would assume USD. You can avoid this error in the future by not being ambiguous in the first place.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2022-06-14, 14:03:
ZellSF wrote on 2022-06-14, 13:45:

I'm confused, are you changing your mind? That was a reply to you recommending not to use SSDs on OSes without TRIM, which is where I said avoiding SSDs was irrational.

Your reply made me rethink what I said considering that most people here used CompactFlash or SSD in old computers without much inconvenience.

Thank you for the clarification.