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Reply 160 of 232, by Plasma

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Shagittarius wrote on 2022-06-29, 14:13:
Plasma wrote on 2022-06-29, 13:30:
DNSDies wrote on 2022-06-28, 14:39:
You're right, it's just a puzzle. It's not a game, in the same way a jigsaw puzzle is not a game. A jigsaw is a puzzle. The cons […]
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You're right, it's just a puzzle. It's not a game, in the same way a jigsaw puzzle is not a game.
A jigsaw is a puzzle. The consequences of its configuration are determinate, for fitting puzzle piece A to spot B has always the same outcome: the piece fits of not, and if the piece fits, the system state alters into a more lucid picture. If the piece does not fit, the system state remains the same.
You can win a game, but you only solve puzzles.

Also, Bioshock has an option to disable vita-chambers, by not using it you degrade a game into an interactive novel with no consequences where the rules don't matter. It becomes a puzzle with a set and simple solution.

A puzzle is a type of game. You do not need to be able to "win" a game. One of the definitions of game is "activity engaged in for diversion or amusement."

I think a win condition is a requirement for a game, but I also think finishing a puzzle is a win condition.

There are lots of games that you cannot definitively win (other than a high score). For example tetris and pinball.

Reply 161 of 232, by Joakim

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Semantics and is one of the most meaningless activities that mankind engages in.

Let's steer the course of the thread to the meaningful hatred of modern gaming!

After a week I managed to install GTA 5 only to realize why I first uninstalled it. I prefer the 'arcady' feeling of gta vice city. I also dislike the idea of changing characters, it removes the immersion.

Reply 162 of 232, by DNSDies

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Plasma wrote on 2022-06-29, 13:30:

A puzzle is a type of game. You do not need to be able to "win" a game. One of the definitions of game is "activity engaged in for diversion or amusement."

so is jerking off a game? Eating? Reading a book? Watching paint dry?
I'm willing to admit there's no accounting for personal tastes.
I don't hate what I define as non-games. They're movies with extra steps to me, and they can still entertain, but I personally believe they get too much critical attention and they are too prevalent because they are so incredibly easy to make and anyone can "play" them without any skill ceiling.

To get back on topic, here's a great reason to hate modern games:
CourageousWeakJabiru-size_restricted.gif

Reply 163 of 232, by Shagittarius

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Plasma wrote on 2022-06-29, 14:26:
Shagittarius wrote on 2022-06-29, 14:13:
Plasma wrote on 2022-06-29, 13:30:

A puzzle is a type of game. You do not need to be able to "win" a game. One of the definitions of game is "activity engaged in for diversion or amusement."

I think a win condition is a requirement for a game, but I also think finishing a puzzle is a win condition.

There are lots of games that you cannot definitively win (other than a high score). For example tetris and pinball.

There are always exceptions to every rule that prove successful, they are interesting to examine.

Reply 164 of 232, by Plasma

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DNSDies wrote on 2022-06-29, 14:55:
Plasma wrote on 2022-06-29, 13:30:

A puzzle is a type of game. You do not need to be able to "win" a game. One of the definitions of game is "activity engaged in for diversion or amusement."

so is jerking off a game? Eating? Reading a book? Watching paint dry?

No need to get salty because your made-up definition of game is incorrect.

There are loads of arcade GAMES that the player cannot win.

Reply 165 of 232, by Tetrium

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DNSDies wrote on 2022-06-29, 14:55:
so is jerking off a game? Eating? Reading a book? Watching paint dry? I'm willing to admit there's no accounting for personal ta […]
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Plasma wrote on 2022-06-29, 13:30:

A puzzle is a type of game. You do not need to be able to "win" a game. One of the definitions of game is "activity engaged in for diversion or amusement."

so is jerking off a game? Eating? Reading a book? Watching paint dry?
I'm willing to admit there's no accounting for personal tastes.
I don't hate what I define as non-games. They're movies with extra steps to me, and they can still entertain, but I personally believe they get too much critical attention and they are too prevalent because they are so incredibly easy to make and anyone can "play" them without any skill ceiling.

To get back on topic, here's a great reason to hate modern games:
CourageousWeakJabiru-size_restricted.gif

Game
/ɡeɪm/
an activity that one engages in for amusement or fun.

So while usually there is a victory condition, the main idea is that it's for fun and/or entertainment, so without any serious consequences regardless of whether or not you win. So a war for instance isn't a game, not is a hostage situation or a survival situation (even though these could also be seen in some way as games, but along with this is the view this may be seen as distasteful).

Heck, even building a PC could be seen as a game 🤣
It's really a fairly loose definition, but it encompasses enjoyment and no-serious-consequences.

So what is a great reason to hate modern games? Mix races within games? Or black people also being pirates which they actually still can be even in modern times?
Care to elaborate? 😜

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Reply 166 of 232, by leileilol

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The very reason for my post is because I saw this equine graveyard sideshow coming more than a mile away that usually never takes account of the executive meddling (i.e. microsoft capitalist influence = delayed certification, dlc, subscriptions, investor safe sequelitis, formulaic GOTYs) or the human costs involved in the AAA games industry to meet financial quarters all being handwaved away every announcement season.

also these aren't modern gaming genres and the arguments stink of 2014.

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Reply 167 of 232, by hail-to-the-ryzen

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The system requirements are also steep in modern renditions. For the arcade genre, Pacman (1980) at Steam has these minimum requirements:
Windows 7, 8(64bit); Processor: 2.3 Ghz; 2 GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics 3000; DirectX Version 9.0c; 1500 MB available space

The original requirements are:
CPU is a Z80 clocked at 3.072 MHz. The game ROM takes 16K at the beginning of the address space, followed by 2K of video memory and 2K of RAM for game use.

Reply 168 of 232, by zyzzle

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That Pacman requirement is patently absurd. I ran the emulated Pac-Man arcade ROM code at 30 fps in Mame 0.10 or 0.20 back in 1997 / 98 in MS-DOS on a Pentium 166 CPU, with 8 Mb of RAM. The video card was nothing special, I think a 2 MB ET6000 card. I got just as much enjoyment out of it then had I owned the original Arcade cabinet. How can increasing system requirements 100x in order to run a 42-year-old emulated game make even a modicum of sense?

Modern requirements for a 42-year-old game are ridiculous, as is the entire concept of having to use Steam as a frontend. Again, I'll stick to AdvanceMAME in DOS, which runs thousands of emulated arcade games with no more than a Core2Duo and about 64 MB of RAM, even today.

Reply 169 of 232, by appiah4

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You do realize that to run ANY game on Steam you have to be able to run Steam first?

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Reply 170 of 232, by gerry

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Joakim wrote on 2022-06-29, 14:51:

Semantics and is one of the most meaningless activities that mankind engages in.

when you say semantics you mean...? (not serious..)

After a week I managed to install GTA 5 only to realize why I first uninstalled it. I prefer the 'arcady' feeling of gta vice city. I also dislike the idea of changing characters, it removes the immersion.

same feeling here, i like the wholly contained nature of older games but i also can enjoy the wide open quality of newer ones

i think the main reason i prefer vice city over gta 4 and 5 is the style and environment of VC is so well tailored to that 80's sunshine & crime genre and the voice acting is memorable, funny and brilliantly matched to the game environment

but in fairness that isnt old v new, that's just great game design

Reply 171 of 232, by DNSDies

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Tetrium wrote on 2022-06-29, 20:41:

So what is a great reason to hate modern games? Mix races within games? Or black people also being pirates which they actually still can be even in modern times?
Care to elaborate? 😜

Holy projection, batman! Wow. Way to jump to conclusions!
I was showing the horrible art style and janky animations.
Sword Master was always black in Monkey Island. Since 1990.
She didn't look like garbage in 1990, though. Neither did poor guybrush.

1656582306651.png

You could also say the death of creativity with washed up old developers releasing endless nostalgia-bait remakes, reboots, and soulless cash grabs.
This one is particularly bad because it replaces all the soul of the originals with a soulless flat corporate art style.

Last edited by DNSDies on 2022-06-30, 13:15. Edited 2 times in total.

Reply 172 of 232, by weedeewee

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DNSDies wrote on 2022-06-30, 13:03:
Holy projection, batman! Wow. Way to jump to conclusions! I was showing the horrible art style and janky animations. Sword Maste […]
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Plasma wrote on 2022-06-29, 13:30:

So what is a great reason to hate modern games? Mix races within games? Or black people also being pirates which they actually still can be even in modern times?
Care to elaborate? 😜

Holy projection, batman! Wow. Way to jump to conclusions!
I was showing the horrible art style and janky animations.
Sword Master was always black in Monkey Island. Since 1990.
She didn't look like garbage in 1990, though. Neither did poor guybrush.

Bad Quotation !

Tetrium wrote on 2022-06-29, 20:41:
Game /ɡeɪm/ an activity that one engages in for amusement or fun. […]
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Game
/ɡeɪm/
an activity that one engages in for amusement or fun.

So while usually there is a victory condition, the main idea is that it's for fun and/or entertainment, so without any serious consequences regardless of whether or not you win. So a war for instance isn't a game, not is a hostage situation or a survival situation (even though these could also be seen in some way as games, but along with this is the view this may be seen as distasteful).

Heck, even building a PC could be seen as a game 🤣
It's really a fairly loose definition, but it encompasses enjoyment and no-serious-consequences.

So what is a great reason to hate modern games? Mix races within games? Or black people also being pirates which they actually still can be even in modern times?
Care to elaborate? 😜

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Do not ask Why !

Reply 173 of 232, by appiah4

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DNSDies wrote on 2022-06-30, 13:03:
Holy projection, batman! Wow. Way to jump to conclusions! I was showing the horrible art style and janky animations. Sword Maste […]
Show full quote
Tetrium wrote on 2022-06-29, 20:41:

So what is a great reason to hate modern games? Mix races within games? Or black people also being pirates which they actually still can be even in modern times?
Care to elaborate? 😜

Holy projection, batman! Wow. Way to jump to conclusions!
I was showing the horrible art style and janky animations.
Sword Master was always black in Monkey Island. Since 1990.
She didn't look like garbage in 1990, though. Neither did poor guybrush.

1656582306651.png

You could also say the death of creativity with washed up old developers releasing endless nostalgia-bait remakes, reboots, and soulless cash grabs.
This one is particularly bad because it replaces all the soul of the originals with a soulless flat corporate art style.

I disagree with everything in this post aside from the fact that Swordmaster was a black woman.

It's an art choice and no art appeals to everyone. Personally, I like RTMI's art choice, it appeals to me. And I wish you would stop stating such subjective opinions as if they were facts.

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 174 of 232, by DNSDies

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appiah4 wrote on 2022-06-30, 13:38:

It's an art choice and no art appeals to everyone. Personally, I like RTMI's art choice, it appeals to me. And I wish you would stop stating such subjective opinions as if they were facts.

The character look largely indiscernible from their backgrounds.
Nobody seems to have any real facial expressions. The animation looks like stiffly animated stick figures flailing at each other.
What little detail there is is flat. Every character's silhouette looks interchangeable. Rampant Penis noses.
The characters in the trailer feel like they're going to start selling me car insurance, or tell me how I should ask my doctor if Monkey Island is right for me.

Ron Gilbert stated he wanted the art to be "provocative, shocking, and not what everyone was expecting".
The problem with this if your entire intent for your art is to subvert expectations and nothing else, you don't have art. You have a picture that says 'Bet you were expecting something else, huh?'
If you like the Microsoft clip-art style, more power to you, but the impression being given is you like it for being different, and nothing else.

This supposedly subversive, shocking, and provocative artistic choice just so happens to be visibly indiscernible from every other bauhaus inspired cheap contracted to the lowest bidder corporate art and makes the entire thing feel like a lazy cash grab churned out by an animation mill in an attempt to make a quick buck on one of the few franchises that hasn't yet burned through all good will the fans have.
The fact that Ron Gilbert's justification for it is the equivalent of "I was trying to upset you on purpose!" doesn't help that feeling at all.

Also, if you didn't want opinions, you came to the wrong thread. This entire thread is full of them.

Reply 175 of 232, by Shagittarius

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DNSDies wrote on 2022-06-30, 14:13:
The character look largely indiscernible from their backgrounds. Nobody seems to have any real facial expressions. The animation […]
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appiah4 wrote on 2022-06-30, 13:38:

It's an art choice and no art appeals to everyone. Personally, I like RTMI's art choice, it appeals to me. And I wish you would stop stating such subjective opinions as if they were facts.

The character look largely indiscernible from their backgrounds.
Nobody seems to have any real facial expressions. The animation looks like stiffly animated stick figures flailing at each other.
What little detail there is is flat. Every character's silhouette looks interchangeable. Rampant Penis noses.
The characters in the trailer feel like they're going to start selling me car insurance, or tell me how I should ask my doctor if Monkey Island is right for me.

Ron Gilbert stated he wanted the art to be "provocative, shocking, and not what everyone was expecting".
The problem with this if your entire intent for your art is to subvert expectations and nothing else, you don't have art. You have a picture that says 'Bet you were expecting something else, huh?'
If you like the Microsoft clip-art style, more power to you, but the impression being given is you like it for being different, and nothing else.

This supposedly subversive, shocking, and provocative artistic choice just so happens to be visibly indiscernible from every other bauhaus inspired cheap contracted to the lowest bidder corporate art and makes the entire thing feel like a lazy cash grab churned out by an animation mill in an attempt to make a quick buck on one of the few franchises that hasn't yet burned through all good will the fans have.
The fact that Ron Gilbert's justification for it is the equivalent of "I was trying to upset you on purpose!" doesn't help that feeling at all.

Also, if you didn't want opinions, you came to the wrong thread. This entire thread is full of them.

I support opinions. You can state an opinion as strongly as you like and its still an opinion.

Reply 176 of 232, by appiah4

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DNSDies wrote on 2022-06-30, 14:13:

Also, if you didn't want opinions, you came to the wrong thread. This entire thread is full of them.

I never said I didn't want opinions. I just said you are stating your opinions as if they were objective facts.

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 177 of 232, by DNSDies

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appiah4 wrote on 2022-06-30, 14:27:

I never said I didn't want opinions. I just said you are stating your opinions as if they were objective facts.

You're going to have to explain to me how my language there gave you the impression that I was spouting gospel and not my personal opinions, because I'm not seeing it.

Reply 178 of 232, by Shagittarius

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DNSDies wrote on 2022-06-30, 14:38:
appiah4 wrote on 2022-06-30, 14:27:

I never said I didn't want opinions. I just said you are stating your opinions as if they were objective facts.

You're going to have to explain to me how my language there gave you the impression that I was spouting gospel and not my personal opinions, because I'm not seeing it.

There's no need to state "In my opinion" in order to recognize an opinion. Anything that is not a fact is an opinion without specifically having to point that out.

Reply 179 of 232, by Kerr Avon

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hail-to-the-ryzen wrote on 2022-06-30, 01:09:
The system requirements are also steep in modern renditions. For the arcade genre, Pacman (1980) at Steam has these minimum requ […]
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The system requirements are also steep in modern renditions. For the arcade genre, Pacman (1980) at Steam has these minimum requirements:
Windows 7, 8(64bit); Processor: 2.3 Ghz; 2 GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics 3000; DirectX Version 9.0c; 1500 MB available space

The original requirements are:
CPU is a Z80 clocked at 3.072 MHz. The game ROM takes 16K at the beginning of the address space, followed by 2K of video memory and 2K of RAM for game use.

The original Pacman arcade machine can be emulated on the later models of the British 1980s micro-computer the ZX Spectrum. Not the earlier Spectrums, as it needs the ability to page 16 KB of RAM to the starting area of memory. The Spectrum's CPU is a Z80 clocked at 3.5 MHz, so it's not really emulation, as the code is altered to run natively, but it's still really impressive that the old Spectrum can run it. On the minus side, due to the Spectrum's video setup, you have to either play the game in monochrome, or in colour but with some colour clash. Aside from that, though its plays and sounds arcade perfect, if I recall correctly.

appiah4 wrote on 2022-06-30, 13:38:

I disagree with everything in this post aside from the fact that Swordmaster was a black woman.

It's an art choice and no art appeals to everyone. Personally, I like RTMI's art choice, it appeals to me. And I wish you would stop stating such subjective opinions as if they were facts.

It's true that art is subjective, but I'd imagine that most people would say the that art style in that animated screenshot is not at all good. And if a consensus of opinion on a work of art is that it's really bad, then surely it's reasonable to say that the product is bad? Or good, if most people like it. Saying "Doom is a great game" is mostly just shorthand for saying "In my opinion, Doom is a great game", and that's accepted parlance.

I mean, I doubt many people would call this good:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opqr200XoMo

So would I be wrong in saying (as I firmly believe) that it's awful, instead of saying that in my opinion it's awful?

Warning: It's Yoko Ono, so you really don't want to click on the link.