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Reply 80 of 110, by gaffa2002

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Criticizing technology is not the same as being technophobic. A lot of valid points were raised and most of the more radical comments were just jokes.
For me, technology's purpose is to solve problems and make things simpler, not just "to progress" for the sake of it.
Computers were much more expensive and hard to use back then, then they became cheaper and easier to use due to the many abstraction layers within, plus updates downloaded automatically, I agree this is wonderful. Not to mention a lot of things that can be done through the internet (including having a remote job).
But now that we reached that peak, it seems the companies, the "good guys" that invested in all that want to get their investment back. And we are now devolving to a point where technology is being used against the people who supported it.
All this great infraestructure and computing power, complex AIs, used to grab money and give it to people who are already filthy rich, how is that progress?

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Reply 81 of 110, by subhuman@xgtx

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Companies and shareholders try to bet their money on where they think most people are heading towards. If they see people buying gimped graphics cards full of rgb lights at 1249 usd then the company will divert some of their resources into perfecting the sales strategy that made the 1249 usd card successful.

TLDR: If the average user is stupid and likes to pay for subpar products/services at exorbitant prices, the company can't help it.

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Reply 82 of 110, by gaffa2002

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subhuman@xgtx wrote on 2022-07-17, 15:20:

Companies and shareholders try to bet their money on where they think most people are heading towards. If they see people buying gimped graphics cards full of rgb lights at 1249 usd then the company will divert some of their resources into perfecting the sales strategy that made the 1249 usd card successful.

TLDR: If the average user is stupid and likes to pay for subpar products/services at exorbitant prices, the company can't help it.

That may be true, but it doesn't take away the companies's responsability for profiting and investing in keeping people stupid.

Last edited by gaffa2002 on 2022-07-17, 16:25. Edited 1 time in total.

LO-RES, HI-FUN

My DOS/ Win98 PC specs

EP-7KXA Motherboard
Athlon Thunderbird 750mhz
256Mb PC100 RAM
Geforce 4 MX440 64MB AGP (128 bit)
Sound Blaster AWE 64 CT4500 (ISA)
32GB HDD

Reply 84 of 110, by ptr1ck

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Meatball wrote on 2022-07-17, 13:01:
ptr1ck wrote on 2022-07-17, 12:15:

You guys are a hoot. If you don't like the progress, then why use modern internet and not just dialup? Why use a modern PC at all?

Which person here said they don't like "progress?" You are hallucinating.

I think a lot is getting lost in translation here. I see this thread as funny ("you guys are a hoot"). I'm not being serious.

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Reply 85 of 110, by MarkP

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ptr1ck wrote on 2022-07-17, 18:43:
Meatball wrote on 2022-07-17, 13:01:
ptr1ck wrote on 2022-07-17, 12:15:

You guys are a hoot. If you don't like the progress, then why use modern internet and not just dialup? Why use a modern PC at all?

Which person here said they don't like "progress?" You are hallucinating.

I think a lot is getting lost in translation here. I see this thread as funny ("you guys are a hoot"). I'm not being serious.

Yes it is a crack up seeing comments from some members. It is as if they haven't heard or been exposed to humor. But one must be careful otherwise you will be put in the rest room for a wee while for "hassling" said members.

Nothing to see here.

Just move right along please.

Reply 86 of 110, by Errius

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This reminds me of how for a long time 'serious' computer users refused to use mice. Mice and GUIs and all the rest were dismissed as kiddie toys. "Real men don't use mice".

I remember that Microsoft used to cater to these people by ensuring that all mouse actions in Windows, Excel, etc. could be exactly replicated on the keyboard. (Is this still true?)

“I like to dissect PCs. Don't you know I'm utterly insane?"

Reply 87 of 110, by darry

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Errius wrote on 2022-07-18, 11:03:

This reminds me of how for a long time 'serious' computer users refused to use mice. Mice and GUIs and all the rest were dismissed as kiddie toys. "Real men don't use mice".

I remember that Microsoft used to cater to these people by ensuring that all mouse actions in Windows, Excel, etc. could be exactly replicated on the keyboard. (Is this still true?)

IMHO, there are two different points here . I only agree with the first one.

a) Some people seeing mice and GUIs as toys is one thing. I see this mainly as resistance to change .

b) Ensuring that all mouse actions have keyboard equivalents is not catering to contrarian hardliners, it is just good interface design. Doing certain operations can be much faster with keyboard shortcuts than with a mouse . For example, try editing a text document or a spreadsheet without cursor keys, copy paste shortcuts, shift or control based selection options, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I think mice are great and very useful, for things like web browsing, point and click gaming, fps gaming, UI navigation, image editing, learning to use/navigate new software, etc, but power users (in a given field) want to be able to do things as fast and effectively as possible, and the mouse is not always the best tool for the job, neither is they keyboard alone (and there is a degree of per user preference/variability on what works best, along with a greater learning curve for keyboard shortcuts than for mouse operations).

Reply 88 of 110, by Jo22

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MarkP wrote on 2022-07-18, 00:03:

Yes it is a crack up seeing comments from some members. It is as if they haven't heard or been exposed to humor. [..]

To be fair, irony and sarcasm were things that were notoriously tricky to transport over the interwebs. Trickier than tunneling IPX, even! :D
That's why these [IRONY ON], [IRONY OFF] type of tags were used since the beginning of the net.
Humor is similar, I guess. You never absolutely knew when someone was serious or not.

And we always have that voice in our mind when we read another user's post, don't we? :)
That voice that we associate with others may sound grumpy or aggressive, but it's unintentionally.

So depending on that, the text we read maybe sounds harsh or pissed. But in reality, the other guy/gal is totally relaxed person maybe.
Unfortunately, we don't realize this until we eatch a YouTube video by that user and realize that he/she is very direct, but totally calm.

So a "No, you're wrong" that we may read here of that fictional same person isn't meant in a teacher-like fashion,
but rather like "Dude, what you mean is not the case here".

Oh, and then are different types of humor whuch are incompatible between people of different nationalities sometimes. English humor, N/A humour (US), French humor, Russian humor, Chinese humol..
And there's German humor, of course, which is a serious matter.

PS: My apologies for my poor Engrish. :)

Edit:

Errius wrote on 2022-07-18, 11:03:

This reminds me of how for a long time 'serious' computer users refused to use mice. Mice and GUIs and all the rest were dismissed as kiddie toys. "Real men don't use mice".

Mouse. Tzz. 🙄 The proper term is "Rollkugelsteuerung" (rolling ball controller, aka RKS 100-86). Kids these days! 😔

640px-Telefunken_Rollkugel_RKS_100-86.jpg
Source: wikimedia.org

Errius wrote on 2022-07-18, 11:03:

This reminds me of how for a long time 'serious' computer users refused to use mice. Mice and GUIs and all the rest were dismissed as kiddie toys. "Real men don't use mice".
I remember that Microsoft used to cater to these people by ensuring that all mouse actions in Windows, Excel, etc. could be exactly replicated on the keyboard. (Is this still true?)

Speaking of.. The East German version of Windows 3.0 didn't support "mice". Mice didn't exist in the GDR (DDR). At least not in offices. :D
Edit: But even if they did, they likely weren't called mice, but rather rats (Ratten).
Because, the GDR needed strong, serious animal names for peripherals. :D

Edit: Pictures added.
Edit: Picture link for the RKS added.

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Last edited by Jo22 on 2022-07-18, 12:52. Edited 1 time in total.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

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Reply 89 of 110, by Meatball

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MarkP wrote on 2022-07-18, 00:03:
Yes it is a crack up seeing comments from some members. It is as if they haven't heard or been exposed to humor. But one must be […]
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ptr1ck wrote on 2022-07-17, 18:43:
Meatball wrote on 2022-07-17, 13:01:

Which person here said they don't like "progress?" You are hallucinating.

I think a lot is getting lost in translation here. I see this thread as funny ("you guys are a hoot"). I'm not being serious.

Yes it is a crack up seeing comments from some members. It is as if they haven't heard or been exposed to humor. But one must be careful otherwise you will be put in the rest room for a wee while for "hassling" said members.

Nothing to see here.

Just move right along please.

I didn't occur to me there was any humor in that comment; I suppose because it wasn't funny. ptr1ck was right the translation was lost, though. I can see I was wrong about ptr1ck post. Great!

With humor I can say any dumb thing I want and then take it back by saying I'm kidding!

I'm being funny - don't take it the wrong way.

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Reply 90 of 110, by Errius

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Jo22 wrote on 2022-07-18, 12:26:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Telefunken_Rollkugel_RKS_100-86.jpg/640px-Telefunken_Rollkugel_RKS_10 […]
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640px-Telefunken_Rollkugel_RKS_100-86.jpg

If I didn't know what this was, I would assume it was something to destroy NATO tanks in event of World War III.

“I like to dissect PCs. Don't you know I'm utterly insane?"

Reply 91 of 110, by imi

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Errius wrote on 2022-07-18, 11:03:

This reminds me of how for a long time 'serious' computer users refused to use mice. Mice and GUIs and all the rest were dismissed as kiddie toys. "Real men don't use mice".

I remember that Microsoft used to cater to these people by ensuring that all mouse actions in Windows, Excel, etc. could be exactly replicated on the keyboard. (Is this still true?)

funny you'd say that, because microsoft has been making it really really hard to stick to mouse control ever since windows 7, including ever increasing layers you have to click through and spreading everything out more and more for longer mouse travel... and don't even get me started on ribbons.

yeah, mouse control was a great innovation, too bad they forgot about that, and we're now at a point where it's quicker to write something into a search field than actually finding the corresponding UI element with a mouse.

Reply 92 of 110, by Jo22

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Errius wrote on 2022-07-18, 13:15:
Jo22 wrote on 2022-07-18, 12:26:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Telefunken_Rollkugel_RKS_100-86.jpg/640px-Telefunken_Rollkugel_RKS_10 […]
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640px-Telefunken_Rollkugel_RKS_100-86.jpg

If I didn't know what this was, I would assume it was something to destroy NATO tanks in event of World War III.

🤣

Yes, that makes sense. Reall looks a bit like a contact mine at first sight, I admit. 😁

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 93 of 110, by darry

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imi wrote on 2022-07-18, 14:03:
Errius wrote on 2022-07-18, 11:03:

This reminds me of how for a long time 'serious' computer users refused to use mice. Mice and GUIs and all the rest were dismissed as kiddie toys. "Real men don't use mice".

I remember that Microsoft used to cater to these people by ensuring that all mouse actions in Windows, Excel, etc. could be exactly replicated on the keyboard. (Is this still true?)

funny you'd say that, because microsoft has been making it really really hard to stick to mouse control ever since windows 7, including ever increasing layers you have to click through and spreading everything out more and more for longer mouse travel... and don't even get me started on ribbons.

yeah, mouse control was a great innovation, too bad they forgot about that, and we're now at a point where it's quicker to write something into a search field than actually finding the corresponding UI element with a mouse.

I don't see that as a mouse issue as much as UI structural design issue due to to a lack of clear direction. I feel it started with Vista, on a mild level, but started getting really bad with Windows 8 and 10 . IMHO, they really need to streamline their UI and decide on where they actually want to go before their design (or lack thereof) deservedly ends up classified in the computer equivalent of the DSM .

Reply 94 of 110, by imi

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yeah, of course it's not a mouse issue, the mouse itself still works perfectly fine as a input device, it's just that modern UI is not made with mice in mind anymore but with touch input, and instead of designing it in a way it can be used with both it get's deliberately handicapped so it's "easier" (whatever that means, see below) to use with touch, while making it increasingly frustrating to use with mice.

now I got nothing against touch in particular, it's just not a suitable form of input on desktop devices, at least not in the way it's intended by modern UI, and even then I'm quicker using desktop oriented interfaces on touch devices as well simply because it's faster to zoom and scroll around to hit a UI element than it is to click through multiple layers of menus.

for me it all ties into the same basic premise, it's to take control away from you, they don't want you to i.e. wander around system settings and customizations, they want you to click on the things they choose.
they don't want you to be a user, they want you to be a product they control.

I know that sounds very tinfoilhatty but I just can't shake that feeling.

Reply 95 of 110, by Errius

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Well, they want you to ditch your desktop and buy a Surface(TM).

Think of the Microsoft OS as a way to drive sales of Microsoft hardware.

“I like to dissect PCs. Don't you know I'm utterly insane?"

Reply 96 of 110, by ratfink

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Hmm, I use a mouse on my Surface Pro without any problems and I almost never use touch.

As I recall back in pre-95 days mouse control was pretty awful though.

As to the quickest way to find something being search - that's pretty pervasive, isn't it? Sometimes it's easier to google/whatever than look up in my shortcuts/booksmarks let alone pick up a real book. Depressing because I liked the old ways, I was used to them. But it's hard to go back. Similar to playing records, I bought record player to play my LPs and singles but omg isn't it slow to do. CDs faster and iTunes faster still.

Back to search vs mice though: I'm sure before mice took over some would have been bemoaning the demise of the text interface. Directly talking to the computer AI using words - now that's some soul, surely?

Reply 97 of 110, by subhuman@xgtx

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Of course they can't help it. A business is not a charity. The main objective of a company is to generate and maximize profits. If mindless customers keep on buying, what can they be blamed for?

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Reply 98 of 110, by imi

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subhuman@xgtx wrote on 2022-07-18, 19:28:

what can they be blamed for?

a lot, actually.
no, corporations are not mindless bacteria that just follow their genetic code, someone made a decision every step of the way, immoral decisions, and they are responsible for each and every one.

yes they can help it, they can be moral, they can make products that help people who buy them, that make their lives easier without exerting control over them, they can be moral about it, and still make money doing it, but most choose to go the easy way of exploitation, extract as much money as possible with as little as you can get away with, none of this is a force of nature, it is humans that decided to do it that way, because they don't care about exploiting others or causing harm to society as long as they get rich doing it.

I wish people weren't as apologetic towards corporations that are ruining our society and our planet.

there are many who try to be good, but unfortunately in a world of unscrupulous businesses honest people don't have a lot of chances to make it.

Reply 99 of 110, by Jo22

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subhuman@xgtx wrote on 2022-07-18, 19:28:

Of course they can't help it. A business is not a charity. The main objective of a company is to generate and maximize profits. If mindless customers keep on buying, what can they be blamed for?

But don't they also have other companies as their customers?
What happens to the reputation if they begin to produce toys rather than proper working tools? PCs are development tools, after all. Smartphone apps are written on PC, not smartphones, for example.
Won't these companies hurt both their corporate partners and themselves that way?

IBM for example was a company that produced rock-solid machinery most of its time.
Despite not being cutting edge all the time, the quality was so good, that their own competitors that hated IBM respected them.
IBM could have increased profits by using plastic and tin instead of steel.
But it didn't, because reputation is of higher value than a temporary increase in income.
Reputation and reliability is an investment worth its money.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//