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When PC became soulless for you?

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Reply 101 of 110, by henk717

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Relatively recently, mostly with the introduction of Windows 10. It used to be a skill to install computers, even though it is no where near as hard I could be hired by someone to reinstall their computer and was able to show off that skill. I had 90% of the drivers of any random PC shown to me, I had my own recovery partition system so they had a proper way of going back to my installations I did for them. Windows let you manage the updates, it was flexible and respected the user.

With Windows 10 all of that went out of the Window. Windows Update handles almost all the drivers (and with the factory reset option it doesn't matter if it doesn't). It already has security out of the box, and a plain Windows 10 install is good enough for most people.

And then there is the whole aspect of Microsoft remotely installing software so doing a custom super clean install is not possible by default. Them forcing their own accounts and settings sync on me, etc. Now the skill is preventing Microsoft from doing it all, which I am equally good at and manage well but that no longer feels like my personal computer. It feels like Microsofts that I am bending to my will. And if a setting is to useful they can take it away at any time.

So all the passion of maintaining a PC, of refining my installation craft, the tweaking, exploring exotic settings and building solutions outside of the box was gone. Now any kid on the block can achieve what used to be unique just by clicking a button or clicking next on a usb stick.

I went to Linux and that gave me that spirit back but I ran into the opposite issue. I perfected the experience so on the operating system there is nothing left to do. Compared to Windows i have less software to explore so that is a perfect daily driver. But it removes the challenge computing used to be.

So I longed for a new challenge, something beyond just using programs but something to truly tinker with the operating systems again. That challenge was retro computing. Every time I dig deeper I notice things I can improve. Having a multibooter lets me play with every OS from 98 to 7. Every one of them has its own charm and challenges so if I get bored i switch to another one.

Now I experience the same passion, building things like startup floppy's that contain all the tools i need. Modified drivers to increase compatibility or functionality. Flashing firmware to the DVD drive to make it region free just because i was curious about it. Finding out why some games don't work on one OS but do on another. Trying to find the best drivers every time it turns out i had bad compatibility with a game.

There is so much to perfect its fun perfecting it all again, taking on seemingly impossible challenges and experiencing games and software that are both nostalgic and in my opinion more fun to play.

Its like an endless source of tinkering fun, while my modern systems just get out of the way. And them getting out of the way is fantastic for daily use, but not for a tinker hobby.

Reply 102 of 110, by darry

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Newer versions of Windows are a lot more user friendly accross the spectrum (installation, maintenance, everyday use), but when something does not work and the auto-healing functionality is unsuccessful, it can be just hard as ever to fix, sometimes harder due to the added complexity under the hood .

And Linux may not be as polished in terms of GUI features (no matter the WM and distro) or auto-healing, it has come a long way as well in terms GUI usability. Unfortunately, that also has comes at the cost of complexity (not everybody loves systemd 😉 ).

Reply 103 of 110, by creepingnet

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henk717 wrote on 2022-07-20, 14:02:
Relatively recently, mostly with the introduction of Windows 10. It used to be a skill to install computers, even though it is n […]
Show full quote

Relatively recently, mostly with the introduction of Windows 10. It used to be a skill to install computers, even though it is no where near as hard I could be hired by someone to reinstall their computer and was able to show off that skill. I had 90% of the drivers of any random PC shown to me, I had my own recovery partition system so they had a proper way of going back to my installations I did for them. Windows let you manage the updates, it was flexible and respected the user.

With Windows 10 all of that went out of the Window. Windows Update handles almost all the drivers (and with the factory reset option it doesn't matter if it doesn't). It already has security out of the box, and a plain Windows 10 install is good enough for most people.

And then there is the whole aspect of Microsoft remotely installing software so doing a custom super clean install is not possible by default. Them forcing their own accounts and settings sync on me, etc. Now the skill is preventing Microsoft from doing it all, which I am equally good at and manage well but that no longer feels like my personal computer. It feels like Microsofts that I am bending to my will. And if a setting is to useful they can take it away at any time.

So all the passion of maintaining a PC, of refining my installation craft, the tweaking, exploring exotic settings and building solutions outside of the box was gone. Now any kid on the block can achieve what used to be unique just by clicking a button or clicking next on a usb stick.

I went to Linux and that gave me that spirit back but I ran into the opposite issue. I perfected the experience so on the operating system there is nothing left to do. Compared to Windows i have less software to explore so that is a perfect daily driver. But it removes the challenge computing used to be.

So I longed for a new challenge, something beyond just using programs but something to truly tinker with the operating systems again. That challenge was retro computing. Every time I dig deeper I notice things I can improve. Having a multibooter lets me play with every OS from 98 to 7. Every one of them has its own charm and challenges so if I get bored i switch to another one.

Now I experience the same passion, building things like startup floppy's that contain all the tools i need. Modified drivers to increase compatibility or functionality. Flashing firmware to the DVD drive to make it region free just because i was curious about it. Finding out why some games don't work on one OS but do on another. Trying to find the best drivers every time it turns out i had bad compatibility with a game.

There is so much to perfect its fun perfecting it all again, taking on seemingly impossible challenges and experiencing games and software that are both nostalgic and in my opinion more fun to play.

Its like an endless source of tinkering fun, while my modern systems just get out of the way. And them getting out of the way is fantastic for daily use, but not for a tinker hobby.

henk717 wrote on 2022-07-20, 14:02:
Relatively recently, mostly with the introduction of Windows 10. It used to be a skill to install computers, even though it is n […]
Show full quote

Relatively recently, mostly with the introduction of Windows 10. It used to be a skill to install computers, even though it is no where near as hard I could be hired by someone to reinstall their computer and was able to show off that skill. I had 90% of the drivers of any random PC shown to me, I had my own recovery partition system so they had a proper way of going back to my installations I did for them. Windows let you manage the updates, it was flexible and respected the user.

With Windows 10 all of that went out of the Window. Windows Update handles almost all the drivers (and with the factory reset option it doesn't matter if it doesn't). It already has security out of the box, and a plain Windows 10 install is good enough for most people.

And then there is the whole aspect of Microsoft remotely installing software so doing a custom super clean install is not possible by default. Them forcing their own accounts and settings sync on me, etc. Now the skill is preventing Microsoft from doing it all, which I am equally good at and manage well but that no longer feels like my personal computer. It feels like Microsofts that I am bending to my will. And if a setting is to useful they can take it away at any time.

So all the passion of maintaining a PC, of refining my installation craft, the tweaking, exploring exotic settings and building solutions outside of the box was gone. Now any kid on the block can achieve what used to be unique just by clicking a button or clicking next on a usb stick.

I went to Linux and that gave me that spirit back but I ran into the opposite issue. I perfected the experience so on the operating system there is nothing left to do. Compared to Windows i have less software to explore so that is a perfect daily driver. But it removes the challenge computing used to be.

So I longed for a new challenge, something beyond just using programs but something to truly tinker with the operating systems again. That challenge was retro computing. Every time I dig deeper I notice things I can improve. Having a multibooter lets me play with every OS from 98 to 7. Every one of them has its own charm and challenges so if I get bored i switch to another one.

Now I experience the same passion, building things like startup floppy's that contain all the tools i need. Modified drivers to increase compatibility or functionality. Flashing firmware to the DVD drive to make it region free just because i was curious about it. Finding out why some games don't work on one OS but do on another. Trying to find the best drivers every time it turns out i had bad compatibility with a game.

There is so much to perfect its fun perfecting it all again, taking on seemingly impossible challenges and experiencing games and software that are both nostalgic and in my opinion more fun to play.

Its like an endless source of tinkering fun, while my modern systems just get out of the way. And them getting out of the way is fantastic for daily use, but not for a tinker hobby.

I feel much the same way.....

This is a big reason in my career I've been focusing on learning the "back end" stuff - ie Servers, networks, Group Policy management, setting up server roles, dealing with specialized STEM Software - some of which is using outdated controls that are hard to deal with but famliar to me because I have something like 6 486s at home capable of running said software still in 2022 because regulatory compliance testing taking so long. Building and installing a Windows 10 PC is something I can do in my sleep at this point. It's also why I've gone to learning Mac and Linux now, just so I have that full roundhouse of weird hardware/software learned when I don't feel like messing with my vintage stuff.

The Vintage stuff I have though is not that hard either, which is probably good because it's pushing me to actually USE it for things rather than spend all my time tinkering and tweaking and tuning settings, or buying more and hot-rodding and modifying them. I've been at this retro-PC thing before there even WAS a retro-PC "thing". So to me "soul" is not necessarily the problematic nature of old hardware, it's more the general vibe, the feeling of running software from the olden days that you remember were far more magical, interesting, and different from the homoegenized experience we have now across platforms. The PC had more of an indentity back then (serious business workstation with some serious capabilities with the right hardware and software), now it's just another generic computer doing computer things most other computers already do.

~The Creeping Network~
My Youtube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/creepingnet
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The Creeping Network Repo - https://www.geocities.ws/creepingnet2019/

Reply 104 of 110, by henk717

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creepingnet wrote on 2022-07-20, 19:36:

The Vintage stuff I have though is not that hard either, which is probably good because it's pushing me to actually USE it for things rather than spend all my time tinkering and tweaking and tuning settings, or buying more and hot-rodding and modifying them. I've been at this retro-PC thing before there even WAS a retro-PC "thing". So to me "soul" is not necessarily the problematic nature of old hardware, it's more the general vibe, the feeling of running software from the olden days that you remember were far more magical, interesting, and different from the homoegenized experience we have now across platforms. The PC had more of an indentity back then (serious business workstation with some serious capabilities with the right hardware and software), now it's just another generic computer doing computer things most other computers already do.

I agree, if I just want to play games on the old hardware I can. It mostly just works at this point, but it has more to explore and perfect. It will work, but it invites you go to that step further. If only I could somehow slow my CPU down for 10 minutes to get the old 3DFX DOS driver to work for that one game with a static linked driver, or perhaps it can load a newer driver somehow. Looks like this version of XCOPY can be replaced with another one for even better compatibility. Oh look! A new tool that lets me shrink the MS-Dos 7.1 IO.SYS to just 76KB (Unfortunately the author made me promise not to share the tool) now i can fit more on my floppy! My sound card has a 3.11 driver? Epic! Wait, the installer was broken thats why nobody uses it. Could I get that installer to work perhaps? It works! But now i don't have midi, does wingroove work? Etc, etc.

So many fun challenges and projects to pick up. But if I just want to play some Unreal Tournament 2004 on Windows XP, or some Half-Life 1 on 98 I can whenever I like. Most of the DOS games I try will just work in a couple tries and I can then play. But purposefully finding things that barely or don't work and seeing if I can make them work, or taking something that already works and making it even better is the charm of it. Its that perfect blend of just being a tool to get your entertainment when you want it to get out of your way, as a fun tinkering platform that then becomes an even better tool in the future if you want it to get out of the way again. Windows 10 meanwhile is just Windows 10, things work, it has the basic settings I need and there is no need to tweak beyond that.

Reply 105 of 110, by imi

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darry wrote on 2022-07-20, 18:59:

Newer versions of Windows are a lot more user friendly accross the spectrum (installation, maintenance, everyday use)

mhh, no.
they take control away from you, that's not the same as being user friendly, quite hostile actually.

it's as if one would say being in prison makes life easier because you don't have to worry about shelter and food.

being user friendly would be giving the user full control and guiding them along the way, giving them the option to change what they please but helping users who don't know how to do things along the way.

Reply 106 of 110, by darry

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imi wrote on 2022-07-21, 00:13:
mhh, no. they take control away from you, that's not the same as being user friendly, quite hostile actually. […]
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darry wrote on 2022-07-20, 18:59:

Newer versions of Windows are a lot more user friendly accross the spectrum (installation, maintenance, everyday use)

mhh, no.
they take control away from you, that's not the same as being user friendly, quite hostile actually.

it's as if one would say being in prison makes life easier because you don't have to worry about shelter and food.

being user friendly would be giving the user full control and guiding them along the way, giving them the option to change what they please but helping users who don't know how to do things along the way.

You are not wrong, if one defines "user friendly" as "designed in the best interest of the user."
I was going for the more classical "easy to start using" (i.e. low barrier to entry) definition.

Let me rephrase what I said :
"Newer versions of Windows are a lot easier to use by tech beginners across the spectrum (installation, maintenance, everyday use), though that comes increasingly at the expense of flexibility and user freedom ."

Reply 107 of 110, by imi

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well, I disagree :p
I'm a user too you know, and most things I used to be able to do quick and easy are a lot more complicated now or all but impossible because a lot of functionality simply gets taken away.

hence why I said full control and choice is user friendly, because it gives everyone what they need.

what you describe only applies to a certain sub set of users.

and while it may make things easier for beginners in some aspects it prevents them from ever learning more and keeps them constrained.

Reply 108 of 110, by Yawnald

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I've been a PC enthusiast since the early 90s. The end of extreme Multi-GPU setups is what killed it for me. Of course, I'm still going through the motions... There's just no spark anymore. Instead of striving to have the best, and dreaming of more power, people will actively belittle you if they deem your system to be TOO EXPENSIVE.

Mr. Tualatin

Reply 109 of 110, by Yawnald

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kolderman wrote on 2022-07-18, 23:54:

When sound-cards were no longer a thing.

When running your own servers for multi-player games were no longer a thing.

When in-game transactions became a thing.

YES YES YES.

Mr. Tualatin

Reply 110 of 110, by GulchWinder3D

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kolderman wrote on 2022-07-18, 23:54:

When running your own servers for multi-player games were no longer a thing.

This one hurts. The only modern game I can think of that still supports this is Minecraft, and even then there's a bigger and bigger push to get you to use their Realms service.