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Reply 120 of 150, by ZellSF

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bloodem wrote on 2022-11-17, 10:50:
You missed my point entirely. What I meant was that, something like this would be very unlikely (if not actually impossible) to […]
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ZellSF wrote on 2022-11-17, 10:18:

3090 Ti is the same TDP and has practically no reports of issues like this. That isn't the cause, even if you want it to be.

You missed my point entirely. What I meant was that, something like this would be very unlikely (if not actually impossible) to happen with a GPU that has a TGP of 200 - 250W or less. The more power you feed these GPUs, the more likely that each tiny engineering mistake (and mistakes DO happen, make no 'mistake'), will result in unforeseen issues (some with potentially dramatic consequences).

As an analogy, if you drive a car at 30 miles per hour and you make a mistake... chances are you will be fine. If you drive it at 100 miles per hour and you make a mistake... the outcome will be quite different.

The 3090Ti not having any issues is not statistically relevant in any way.
When playing the Russian roulette, you can't say with 100% certainty that the gun is not loaded just because, in your case, the gun didn't fire.

So, I reiterate: the power consumption IS the real cause, and things will get worse as we crawl our way to manufacturing 1kW GPUs (and the CPU situation doesn't look very good either).

I don't see the correlation. Is a 1000W space heater much more likely to fail than a 500W space heater? Will a 1000W space heater do more damage when it fails? A 25W electronic device can start a fire just fine.

appiah4 wrote on 2022-11-17, 10:40:
ZellSF wrote on 2022-11-17, 10:18:
appiah4 wrote on 2022-11-16, 06:01:

7900XTX will come on Dec 13th, and destrou the 4080. It will also be within 10%-15% of the 4090 at 60% the cost.

The only data we have on that so far is from AMD marketing. I wouldn't say anything is for certain yet.

Don't get me wrong, I both hope and think that's going to be the case, but regurgitating corporate marketing without clearly stating that it is so is a very bad thing to do.

There has never been a single case of AMD marketing numbers being off since the Polaris launch, and that includes the lacklustre results from Vega and VII. They are 100% transparent and never surprise.

There is nothing forcing AMD to stay honest. You should disclose when you're making statements based on marketing numbers.

Reply 121 of 150, by Nexxen

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I have a GTX 690, 350W max power draw.
It sucks juice pretty well. Gets hot, MUST have a well ventilated "environment" to avoid overheating. I barely use the rig hosting it.

Getting these new cards requires a good case, fans and space.
Old cards, 25W, even bad ventilation was ok. Not ideal but you get around it.

Do that today and your card is likely to fail rapidly. You can't just drop it in like old AT or early ATX cases anymore.
You have to add the costs of that + gfx card.

Things changed since early 3D cards 😀

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Reply 122 of 150, by Jasin Natael

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bloodem wrote on 2022-11-17, 08:05:
appiah4 wrote on 2022-11-17, 07:00:
Jasin Natael wrote on 2022-11-17, 02:13:

If their non monolithic chiplet design proves as fruitful as it has with their Zen chips.....it is more than possible. Maybe even probable.

Monolithic chiplet design?..

"non-monolithic" chiplet design 😀

Yes, NON monolithic.
If they can make their future chips "scalable" by simpling adding more modules (ccx, gcx?) whatever they decide to call them it could really be a game changer, literally and figuratively speaking.
Kind of funny as that is exactly what 3dfx set out to do with the VSA, wildly different technology of course. But still interesting to note.

Reply 123 of 150, by The Serpent Rider

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ZellSF wrote:

Is a 1000W space heater much more likely to fail than a 500W space heater?

In theory - no. In practice, corner cutting is bound to happen, that's why VRM failures with severe damage on modern video cards occur much more often.

Jasin Natael wrote:

Kind of funny as that is exactly what 3dfx set out to do with the VSA,

VSA was not a new concept, not in a slightest. In fact, it was the laziest solution they could do - just do everything 2x/4x times, which was borrowed anyway from Avenger based (Voodoo 3) professional boards. At least Voodoo 1/2 had separate chips for different tasks, which was common for professional 3D accelerators back then.

And in general, chiplet design is not a good thing, because it indicates that you need a workaround for lithography limitations, be it physical or economical ones. It's not a bad thing though, if your competitor is fruitlessly trying to bash his head against monolithic wall (cough cough Intel).

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Reply 124 of 150, by bloodem

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ZellSF wrote on 2022-11-17, 11:40:

I don't see the correlation. Is a 1000W space heater much more likely to fail than a 500W space heater? Will a 1000W space heater do more damage when it fails? A 25W electronic device can start a fire just fine.

Space heaters are meant to radiate... heat. That's their sole purpose in life. 😀
But, more importantly, space heaters are preassembled (and they are really not that complex to begin with), so there is nothing "DIY" about them. Even your average grandma can go to the store, buy one, come home, plug it in... Bottom line, the users don't have to connect any high current heating elements themselves, and they even come with a warning that mentions how only professionals should take them apart.
Since they are very simple appliances, there isn't much risk of fire either (unless used EXTREMELY carelessly). Worst case scenario, they fail short (at which point your home's circuit breakers will do their job).

On the other hand, 500+W video cards are part of the DIY PC building market, they are actually meant to be handled by hundreds of thousands or even millions of diferent hands, and those same hands need to connect some pretty high current cables themselves (not to mention that the card itself will then reside in a hot, enclosed case - with quite a bit of plastic parts surrounding it)... it's a recipe for disaster if you ask me.

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Reply 125 of 150, by Jasin Natael

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-11-17, 14:57:
In theory - no. In practice, corner cutting is bound to happen, that's why VRM failures with severe damage on modern video cards […]
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ZellSF wrote:

Is a 1000W space heater much more likely to fail than a 500W space heater?

In theory - no. In practice, corner cutting is bound to happen, that's why VRM failures with severe damage on modern video cards occur much more often.

Jasin Natael wrote:

Kind of funny as that is exactly what 3dfx set out to do with the VSA,

VSA was not a new concept, not in a slightest. In fact, it was the laziest solution they could do - just do everything 2x/4x times, which was borrowed anyway from Avenger based (Voodoo 3) professional boards. At least Voodoo 1/2 had separate chips for different tasks, which was common for professional 3D accelerators back then.

And in general, chiplet design is not a good thing, because it indicates that you need a workaround for lithography limitations, be it physical or economical ones. It's not a bad thing though, if your competitor is fruitlessly trying to bash his head against monolithic wall (cough cough Intel).

Well, yes and no. It was still a concept as they never really got farther than proof of concept. Alternate frame redering provided to be problematic, even if it was used for years afterwards.
Chiplet designed "cores" aren't the same thing as indivual processing units.

If it works as designed it will not be differnt chips rendering frames, it will be more likened to just adding compute units (stream processors, CUDA cores, what have you) exponentially to the already existing processor. Without meaningfully increasing die size, power draw etc. Basically exactly how Zen cores operate.
Now, I am no engineer so i can't pretend to understand the technology or explain it in any meaningful way, but that is the gist of it.

Reply 126 of 150, by The Serpent Rider

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Well, original 6-pin PCIe connector was advertised for 75W output, although it had like 3x-4x headroom by design with crappiest cable possible.

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Reply 127 of 150, by Standard Def Steve

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bloodem wrote on 2022-11-17, 15:33:

Space heaters are meant to radiate... heat. That's their sole purpose in life. 😀
But, more importantly, space heaters are preassembled (and they are really not that complex to begin with), so there is nothing "DIY" about them. Even your average grandma can go to the store, buy one, come home, plug it in... Bottom line, the users don't have to connect any high current heating elements themselves, and they even come with a warning that mentions how only professionals should take them apart.
Since they are very simple appliances, there isn't much risk of fire either (unless used EXTREMELY carelessly). Worst case scenario, they fail short (at which point your home's circuit breakers will do their job).

I've never trusted those little electric heaters. They always smell like burnt toast. I know it's just dust burning off the elements, but I totally wouldn't feel comfortable leaving one alone for more than a few minutes. And get this: I once had an old mid-80s heater whose power plug always got super hot after running for more than 20-30 minutes. Gee, remind you of anything? 😜

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Reply 128 of 150, by Nexxen

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Standard Def Steve wrote on 2022-11-17, 17:14:

I've never trusted those little electric heaters. They always smell like burnt toast. I know it's just dust burning off the elements, but I totally wouldn't feel comfortable leaving one alone for more than a few minutes. And get this: I once had an old mid-80s heater whose power plug always got super hot after running for more than 20-30 minutes. Gee, remind you of anything? 😜

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Reply 129 of 150, by appiah4

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Jasin Natael wrote on 2022-11-17, 14:52:

Kind of funny as that is exactly what 3dfx set out to do with the VSA, wildly different technology of course. But still interesting to note.

It's not even remotely the same thing IMO..

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Reply 130 of 150, by Jasin Natael

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appiah4 wrote on 2022-11-18, 06:00:
Jasin Natael wrote on 2022-11-17, 14:52:

Kind of funny as that is exactly what 3dfx set out to do with the VSA, wildly different technology of course. But still interesting to note.

It's not even remotely the same thing IMO..

It certainly isn't technically speaking. But it has the same end in mind. To be scalable.

Reply 131 of 150, by The Serpent Rider

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Gamers Nexus follow-up with Nvidia official statement.

Well, it seems that the issue is so isolated, that Nvidia is generous enough to do RMA for every unlucky customer which made an error during installation. Too bad for AMD, their gloating about this situation was a bit too "preemptive".

Last edited by The Serpent Rider on 2022-11-19, 15:50. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 132 of 150, by drosse1meyer

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This is why you stick with S3 Virge 😁

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Reply 133 of 150, by ZellSF

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bloodem wrote on 2022-11-17, 15:33:
Space heaters are meant to radiate... heat. That's their sole purpose in life. :-) But, more importantly, space heaters are prea […]
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ZellSF wrote on 2022-11-17, 11:40:

I don't see the correlation. Is a 1000W space heater much more likely to fail than a 500W space heater? Will a 1000W space heater do more damage when it fails? A 25W electronic device can start a fire just fine.

Space heaters are meant to radiate... heat. That's their sole purpose in life. 😀
But, more importantly, space heaters are preassembled (and they are really not that complex to begin with), so there is nothing "DIY" about them. Even your average grandma can go to the store, buy one, come home, plug it in... Bottom line, the users don't have to connect any high current heating elements themselves, and they even come with a warning that mentions how only professionals should take them apart.
Since they are very simple appliances, there isn't much risk of fire either (unless used EXTREMELY carelessly). Worst case scenario, they fail short (at which point your home's circuit breakers will do their job).

On the other hand, 500+W video cards are part of the DIY PC building market, they are actually meant to be handled by hundreds of thousands or even millions of diferent hands, and those same hands need to connect some pretty high current cables themselves (not to mention that the card itself will then reside in a hot, enclosed case - with quite a bit of plastic parts surrounding it)... it's a recipe for disaster if you ask me.

You connect a high current cable to your GPU. You connect a high current cable to your space heater.

Space heaters are often surrounded by highly flammable stuff, which is way more dangerous than being surrounded by plastic.

But when space heaters fail and create fires, where do we place the blame? On the manufacturer's neglect. Not the amount of power they draw, nor the complexity of their design. That's ridiculous.

Reply 134 of 150, by Hoping

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ZellSF wrote on 2022-11-20, 19:50:
You connect a high current cable to your GPU. You connect a high current cable to your space heater. […]
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bloodem wrote on 2022-11-17, 15:33:
Space heaters are meant to radiate... heat. That's their sole purpose in life. :-) But, more importantly, space heaters are prea […]
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ZellSF wrote on 2022-11-17, 11:40:

I don't see the correlation. Is a 1000W space heater much more likely to fail than a 500W space heater? Will a 1000W space heater do more damage when it fails? A 25W electronic device can start a fire just fine.

Space heaters are meant to radiate... heat. That's their sole purpose in life. 😀
But, more importantly, space heaters are preassembled (and they are really not that complex to begin with), so there is nothing "DIY" about them. Even your average grandma can go to the store, buy one, come home, plug it in... Bottom line, the users don't have to connect any high current heating elements themselves, and they even come with a warning that mentions how only professionals should take them apart.
Since they are very simple appliances, there isn't much risk of fire either (unless used EXTREMELY carelessly). Worst case scenario, they fail short (at which point your home's circuit breakers will do their job).

On the other hand, 500+W video cards are part of the DIY PC building market, they are actually meant to be handled by hundreds of thousands or even millions of diferent hands, and those same hands need to connect some pretty high current cables themselves (not to mention that the card itself will then reside in a hot, enclosed case - with quite a bit of plastic parts surrounding it)... it's a recipe for disaster if you ask me.

You connect a high current cable to your GPU. You connect a high current cable to your space heater.

Space heaters are often surrounded by highly flammable stuff, which is way more dangerous than being surrounded by plastic.

But when space heaters fail and create fires, where do we place the blame? On the manufacturer's neglect. Not the amount of power they draw, nor the complexity of their design. That's ridiculous.

One question, so that I am not mistaken, how much does one of those space heaters that you mention cost?
Because the ones I know of are a little, just a little cheaper than a 4090.

Reply 135 of 150, by ZellSF

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Hoping wrote on 2022-11-20, 20:37:
ZellSF wrote on 2022-11-20, 19:50:
You connect a high current cable to your GPU. You connect a high current cable to your space heater. […]
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bloodem wrote on 2022-11-17, 15:33:
Space heaters are meant to radiate... heat. That's their sole purpose in life. :-) But, more importantly, space heaters are prea […]
Show full quote

Space heaters are meant to radiate... heat. That's their sole purpose in life. 😀
But, more importantly, space heaters are preassembled (and they are really not that complex to begin with), so there is nothing "DIY" about them. Even your average grandma can go to the store, buy one, come home, plug it in... Bottom line, the users don't have to connect any high current heating elements themselves, and they even come with a warning that mentions how only professionals should take them apart.
Since they are very simple appliances, there isn't much risk of fire either (unless used EXTREMELY carelessly). Worst case scenario, they fail short (at which point your home's circuit breakers will do their job).

On the other hand, 500+W video cards are part of the DIY PC building market, they are actually meant to be handled by hundreds of thousands or even millions of diferent hands, and those same hands need to connect some pretty high current cables themselves (not to mention that the card itself will then reside in a hot, enclosed case - with quite a bit of plastic parts surrounding it)... it's a recipe for disaster if you ask me.

You connect a high current cable to your GPU. You connect a high current cable to your space heater.

Space heaters are often surrounded by highly flammable stuff, which is way more dangerous than being surrounded by plastic.

But when space heaters fail and create fires, where do we place the blame? On the manufacturer's neglect. Not the amount of power they draw, nor the complexity of their design. That's ridiculous.

One question, so that I am not mistaken, how much does one of those space heaters that you mention cost?
Because the ones I know of are a little, just a little cheaper than a 4090.

I'm not sure what your point is here, again I blame potential fire starters on manufacturer neglect, regardless of cost or power draw.

Reply 136 of 150, by 386SX

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What I don't understand beside I don't care about modern video cards, how it's possible that new reference PCB boards weren't immediately redesigned with whatever new/old connector/adapter would be better even if not "modern" like that one. Are those cards still released with the same connector? I mean a solution should have been expected to be released immediately after the very first news about this problem for such high end video cards.

Reply 138 of 150, by The Serpent Rider

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Because problem was exaggerated. It's still a shitty connector though - three 8-pin connectors can pull more power more safely. But they can't retroactively say that it's fine to use them for 600W power consumption now. This will lead to more problems on PSU side.

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