I dunno I guess you could do a retro pc magazine , but have it just cover an assortment of stuff , primarily have it based around hardware cause that's kinda the main selling point of pcs , the myriad of choices.

You could also have a lot more content if you don't just focus on gaming but business machines , kinda like computer chronicles did, maybe have pages with old ads in them featuring upper end business machines people drooled over back in the day but also budget consumer machines or ram cards.

You could do an article on matrox and their cards from the 80s to the 00s , then another on the simens nixdorf pcs , 3DFX , Packard Bell , Leading Edge , Forte Technologies , segate, IBM , Compaq , even obscure oddware.

Likewise for software could do ID software , raven , the Lotus 123 guys , people that made various CAD programs etc.

Maybe you could have someone go out and do some research and some phone calls and actually find the provenance of all those generic Taiwanese 486 cases and what companies actually stamped them out and what their stories were , could be pretty something pretty compelling.

It would probably be a ton of work to chase up hardware and software developers from back then though.

So in a nutshell condense computer chronicles and LGR into a magazine with a 80s and 90s aesthetic and maybe it will sell , probably not as well as something like amiga addict but it might have a fighting chance.

Basically an international version of the old Danish version of the magazine called PC Player. That even had a CD with it. Heck I even remember the Danish PC cheat books called "Tips & Tricks". Which was from the same publisher. The CD included, is how I got my mod file collection started back in the day. And I still remember one of the cover CD´s had a virus on it. I would love to see an archive of those cover CD´s from that Danish magazine. But I think it is only a pipe-dream, and the same goes with a scan of all those Danish PC Player magazines. I think it would be more possible getting a whole archive of those cover CD´s than a scan of the magazines. Because of copyright laws and what not sadly.

WolverineDK wrote on 2023-09-26, 17:43:

Basically an international version of the old Danish version of the magazine called PC Player. That even had a CD with it. Heck I even remember the Danish PC cheat books called "Tips & Tricks". Which was from the same publisher. The CD included, is how I got my mod file collection started back in the day. And I still remember one of the cover CD´s had a virus on it. I would love to see an archive of those cover CD´s from that Danish magazine. But I think it is only a pipe-dream, and the same goes with a scan of all those Danish PC Player magazines. I think it would be more possible getting a whole archive of those cover CD´s than a scan of the magazines. Because of copyright laws and what not sadly.

AppleSauce wrote on 2023-09-26, 17:31:

I dunno I guess you could do a retro pc magazine , but have it just cover an assortment of stuff , primarily have it based aroun […]
Show full quote

I dunno I guess you could do a retro pc magazine , but have it just cover an assortment of stuff , primarily have it based around hardware cause that's kinda the main selling point of pcs , the myriad of choices.

You could also have a lot more content if you don't just focus on gaming but business machines , kinda like computer chronicles did, maybe have pages with old ads in them featuring upper end business machines people drooled over back in the day but also budget consumer machines or ram cards.

You could do an article on matrox and their cards from the 80s to the 00s , then another on the simens nixdorf pcs , 3DFX , Packard Bell , Leading Edge , Forte Technologies , segate, IBM , Compaq , even obscure oddware.

Likewise for software could do ID software , raven , the Lotus 123 guys , people that made various CAD programs etc.

Maybe you could have someone go out and do some research and some phone calls and actually find the provenance of all those generic Taiwanese 486 cases and what companies actually stamped them out and what their stories were , could be pretty something pretty compelling.

It would probably be a ton of work to chase up hardware and software developers from back then though.

So in a nutshell condense computer chronicles and LGR into a magazine with a 80s and 90s aesthetic and maybe it will sell , probably not as well as something like amiga addict but it might have a fighting chance.

Wow guys! But those are fantastic ideas! See!!! IT's already something!!! Thanks!

Oh if only I had the dough!!!!

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-26, 17:46:

Wow guys! But those are fantastic ideas! See!!! IT's already something!!! Thanks! […]
Show full quote

WolverineDK wrote on 2023-09-26, 17:43:

Basically an international version of the old Danish version of the magazine called PC Player. That even had a CD with it. Heck I even remember the Danish PC cheat books called "Tips & Tricks". Which was from the same publisher. The CD included, is how I got my mod file collection started back in the day. And I still remember one of the cover CD´s had a virus on it. I would love to see an archive of those cover CD´s from that Danish magazine. But I think it is only a pipe-dream, and the same goes with a scan of all those Danish PC Player magazines. I think it would be more possible getting a whole archive of those cover CD´s than a scan of the magazines. Because of copyright laws and what not sadly.

AppleSauce wrote on 2023-09-26, 17:31:

I dunno I guess you could do a retro pc magazine , but have it just cover an assortment of stuff , primarily have it based aroun […]
Show full quote

I dunno I guess you could do a retro pc magazine , but have it just cover an assortment of stuff , primarily have it based around hardware cause that's kinda the main selling point of pcs , the myriad of choices.

You could also have a lot more content if you don't just focus on gaming but business machines , kinda like computer chronicles did, maybe have pages with old ads in them featuring upper end business machines people drooled over back in the day but also budget consumer machines or ram cards.

You could do an article on matrox and their cards from the 80s to the 00s , then another on the simens nixdorf pcs , 3DFX , Packard Bell , Leading Edge , Forte Technologies , segate, IBM , Compaq , even obscure oddware.

Likewise for software could do ID software , raven , the Lotus 123 guys , people that made various CAD programs etc.

Maybe you could have someone go out and do some research and some phone calls and actually find the provenance of all those generic Taiwanese 486 cases and what companies actually stamped them out and what their stories were , could be pretty something pretty compelling.

It would probably be a ton of work to chase up hardware and software developers from back then though.

So in a nutshell condense computer chronicles and LGR into a magazine with a 80s and 90s aesthetic and maybe it will sell , probably not as well as something like amiga addict but it might have a fighting chance.

Wow guys! But those are fantastic ideas! See!!! IT's already something!!! Thanks!

Oh if only I had the dough!!!!

Mate , make it a "fanzine" first 😀 I mean making an ISO of different (demos) of games, and perhaps even have a freeware section with games on the cover disc, heck even custom made levels and mods made for old FPS games, such as Wolf3D, Doom Duke 3D what have you, and then have a mod file and demos section, heck even some old graphical demos and new ones if possible on the disc 😀 the expensive part, would be getting it professionally made, unless you know some one who can make it cheap. And getting the cover discs printed and made, not just burned. And why did I say disc, instead of CD ? well if the media is cheaper for a DVD or bigger, then go for that. I believe by asking permission, and getting the green light for some of the mods and levels first, should be in order. That is the legal side of things. Anyway I am just throwing out some ideas, that could be a reality 😀

WolverineDK wrote on 2023-09-26, 18:06:

... cover disc...

just 27 years ago... 😏

DerBaum wrote on 2023-09-26, 18:20:

WolverineDK wrote on 2023-09-26, 18:06:

... cover disc...

just 27 years ago... 😏

2023-09-26 20.15.04.jpg

*Salivating, and mouth dropping*

Yup that was what I meant 😁

But somebody should make an effort of archiving the Danish PC Player cover disc´s (and of course removing the virus from the particular CD). , then it would be smashing great 😀 Thanks for giving me a small nostalgia trip 😀

DerBaum wrote on 2023-09-26, 18:20:

just 27 years ago... 😏

2023-09-26 20.15.04.jpg

Oh, at that time, I was also in Italy, so I never knew those discs...

WolverineDK wrote on 2023-09-26, 18:06:

Mate , make it a "fanzine" first 😀 I mean making an ISO of different (demos) of games, and perhaps even have a freeware section with games on the cover disc, heck even custom made levels and mods made for old FPS games, such as Wolf3D, Doom Duke 3D what have you, and then have a mod file and demos section, heck even some old graphical demos and new ones if possible on the disc 😀 the expensive part, would be getting it professionally made, unless you know some one who can make it cheap. And getting the cover discs printed and made, not just burned. And why did I say disc, instead of CD ? well if the media is cheaper for a DVD or bigger, then go for that. I believe by asking permission, and getting the green light for some of the mods and levels first, should be in order. That is the legal side of things. Anyway I am just throwing out some ideas, that could be a reality 😀

Also great addition to the dream retro pc magazine! Thanks!

Yeah, there is so much hype around Commodore 64 these days.

Even though I didn't grow with it and I have zero nostalgia about it, I really tried to find at least one excuse for purchasing one. But I didn't find. I know, Commodore 64 fans probably will tear me now into pieces, but it is bad in every sense you can ever think of - it is slow, it is not portable, it has weird color palette, it has terrible floppy drive, bad BASIC interpreter and so on.

Just the same I can say about another iconic computer - ZX Spectrum. It is as terrible as Commodore 64, or maybe even more.

Of course, there are many other bad computers, like Epson HX-20 for example, but what a cute little machine it is! It is more a calculator on steroids than a computer, but it is lightweight, is is portable and it has in one housing everything you need - display, cassette recorder, printer, keyboard and battery.

So I really don't understand what can this computer attract, beside satisfaction of nostalgic feelings?

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-09-26, 20:36:

Yeah, there is so much hype around Commodore 64 these days. […]
Show full quote

Yeah, there is so much hype around Commodore 64 these days.

Even though I didn't grow with it and I have zero nostalgia about it, I really tried to find at least one excuse for purchasing one. But I didn't find. I know, Commodore 64 fans probably will tear me now into pieces, but it is bad in every sense you can ever think of - it is slow, it is not portable, it has weird color palette, it has terrible floppy drive, bad BASIC interpreter and so on.

Of course, there are many other bad computers, like Epson HX-20 for example, but what a cute little machine it is! It is more a calculator on steroids than a computer, but it is lightweight, is is portable and it has in one housing everything you need - display, cassette recorder, printer, keyboard and battery.

So I really don't understand what can this computer attract, beside satisfaction of nostalgic feelings?

Perhaps that's all: Nostalgic feelings.

Still, C64 people are way more effective in turning such feelings into products, hype, and widespread coverage!

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-26, 20:48:

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-09-26, 20:36:

Yeah, there is so much hype around Commodore 64 these days. […]
Show full quote

Yeah, there is so much hype around Commodore 64 these days.

Even though I didn't grow with it and I have zero nostalgia about it, I really tried to find at least one excuse for purchasing one. But I didn't find. I know, Commodore 64 fans probably will tear me now into pieces, but it is bad in every sense you can ever think of - it is slow, it is not portable, it has weird color palette, it has terrible floppy drive, bad BASIC interpreter and so on.

Of course, there are many other bad computers, like Epson HX-20 for example, but what a cute little machine it is! It is more a calculator on steroids than a computer, but it is lightweight, is is portable and it has in one housing everything you need - display, cassette recorder, printer, keyboard and battery.

So I really don't understand what can this computer attract, beside satisfaction of nostalgic feelings?

Perhaps that's all: Nostalgic feelings.

Still, C64 people are way more effective in turning such feelings into products, hype, and widespread coverage!

Maybe it's because on the PC side you actually don't need much to be invented , cause you already have almost everything you'll ever need.

I think in general, as a scene commodore's have more people around them then retro pc's.
Im not much of an 8 bit commodore fan, but theres c64 motherboards, replacements for the sid chip, numourus floppy drive replacements, new cases have been made and thats just the stuff off the top of my head, The Amiga has the same thing happening, new cases, motherboards, loads of accelerators from 030 and 060 ones, to ones that use the raspberry pi, scandoublers, new mice,joysticks keyboards have been made, heck theres been a few new versions of the os done over the last few years.

Also, everything is a fixed item, a c64/amiga is a fixed collection of parts where the pc you could get 10 386's and every motherboard is different, I know theres clones of some cards like the gus and others, but generally every pc is different, its what makes them great, but also makes it much harder to make hardware for old systems as everyones taste in a retro pc is different depending on your own memorys of it.

I think the fact that there is just one C64 actually helps it to focus everyone on a single product. The C64 is a much loved computer with some very cool features for the time for a cheap price. It has downsides but upsides too. The C64 has had a following since it was still being sold and that following never died.

There are tons of computers with much less of a following than the C64 so I don’t think we have anything to feel bad about.

midicollector wrote on 2023-09-26, 21:07:

I think the fact that there is just one C64 actually helps it to focus everyone on a single product. The C64 is a much loved computer with some very cool features for the time for a cheap price. It has downsides but upsides too. The C64 has had a following since it was still being sold and that following never died.

There are tons of computers with much less of a following than the C64 so I don’t think we have anything to feel bad about.

sneeker wrote on 2023-09-26, 21:07:

I think in general, as a scene commodore's have more people around them then retro pc's.
Im not much of an 8 bit commodore fan, but theres c64 motherboards, replacements for the sid chip, numourus floppy drive replacements, new cases have been made and thats just the stuff off the top of my head, The Amiga has the same thing happening, new cases, motherboards, loads of accelerators from 030 and 060 ones, to ones that use the raspberry pi, scandoublers, new mice,joysticks keyboards have been made, heck theres been a few new versions of the os done over the last few years.

Also, everything is a fixed item, a c64/amiga is a fixed collection of parts where the pc you could get 10 386's and every motherboard is different, I know theres clones of some cards like the gus and others, but generally every pc is different, its what makes them great, but also makes it much harder to make hardware for old systems as everyones taste in a retro pc is different depending on your own memorys of it.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-09-26, 20:58:

Maybe it's because on the PC side you actually don't need much to be invented , cause you already have almost everything you'll ever need.

Y'all make good points!

Still, I am convinced that, even though

...it [is] much harder to make hardware for old systems as everyones taste in a retro pc is different depending on your own memorys of it

, if a handful of wealthy, committed, generous, and courageous Retro PC people started creating at least a simple line of newly-made 'basics', it would gradually grab the attention of all retro PC lovers and start building a new market. For example:

• A couple of typical old-times cases (maybe a Tower, a midtower/minotower, a desktop)
• A 286 mobo (possibly backward compatible with previous CPUs)
• A 386 mobo
• A 486 mobo
• A Pentium mobo
• A remake of an excellent DOS SVGA (such as, Tseng ET4000 W32) on ISA, VLB, and PCI
• A remake of an excellent Windows accelerator SVGA (such as, S3 928 or higher or an Ati Mach 32 or 64) on ISA, VLB, and PCI
• 30 pin, 72 pin, and 168 pin RAM modules (both 60 and 70 ns, EDO 60 ns, and SDRAM)
• 12 ns cache chips and slot modules, and also pipelined burst
• An excellent, pleasant keyboard
• An excellent 3 buttons, scroll wheel, optical mouse
• An excellent retro-looking beige LCD or similar monitor (almost looking like a fake CRT, only much thinner), optimized for old video cards
• Plus a fantastic magazine of course!

It would grab more than 80% of retro PC people's attention, and it might even slowly conquer the hearts and attention of most of the remaining quota

But that's just my opinion.

If there is a market, there will be stuff.
Millions of C64 that all work the same, have the same limitations, and have the same of 2 cases.
If you make 1 accessory it will fit basically all of them.
Development cost is small, due to just 1 or 2 variants for a super simple platform.
Your product is instantly interesting to all of the users.

Pc stuff is hard. Like already said, there is everything available.
The best selling newly made retro parts are recreations of old rare parts (soundcards, drive controller...). And not every pc user is looking for rare parts... many of us are happy with a existing clone from back in the days that works the same but without a brandname... The aftermarket is slowly getting thin but is still existing. And as long as you can get cheap parts there is no need and no market for more expensive recreations.

For the demoscene, the fact that there's basically only one C64 (it's a European thing, so NTSC C64s generally get ignored) is exactly why it's such a nice platform.
It's like a sports category. Everyone gets the exact same machine, exact same specs. Which also means that everyone has a good idea of what the machine should be capable of.
Now try to wow eachother by doing things that nobody thought was possible.

On the PC I would say that you should do the same thing, using the original IBM PC 5150 with CGA and PC speaker. But even then there's a debate of how much memory... and can you use a HDD or not?

Mmmm.... good points guys

There are a couple of C64 models, strictly speaking.

- C64
- C64 II (C64C)
- C64G
- "Aldi-C64"
- C64 Golden Edition
- PET 64 (Educator 64-1, CBM 4064)
- Educator 64-2
- SX-64
- C128
- C128D
- C65 (unreleased)
- C64GS (C64 Games System)
- Japanese C64 (Katakana symbols)

Though they're technically all very similar to the basic C64 design, I'm afraid.
The differences are rather in detail, like SID version or VIC II (and all flawed in a different way, still).

The floppy disk drive alone has a couple of versions, too, one buggier than the other.
Merely the C128D with its internal drive seems to be quite okay, it has a light barrier and a proper interface.

Jo22 wrote on 2023-09-27, 13:42:

There are a couple of C64 models, strictly speaking. […]
Show full quote

There are a couple of C64 models, strictly speaking.

- C64
- C64 II (C64C)
- C64G
- "Aldi-C64"
- C64 Golden Edition
- PET 64 (Educator 64-1, CBM 4064)
- Educator 64-2
- SX-64
- C128
- C128D
- C65 (unreleased)
- C64GS (C64 Games System)
- Japanese C64 (Katakana symbols)

Though they're technically all very similar to the basic C64 design, I'm afraid.
The differences are rather in detail, like SID version or VIC II (and all flawed in a different way, still).

The floppy disk drive alone has a couple of versions, too, one buggier than the other.
Merely the C128D with its internal drive seems to be quite okay, it has a light barrier and a proper interface.

😳 whoa!
well, I didn't know that!

Jo22 wrote on 2023-09-27, 13:42:

There are a couple of C64 models, strictly speaking. […]
Show full quote

There are a couple of C64 models, strictly speaking.

- C64
- C64 II (C64C)
- C64G
- "Aldi-C64"
- C64 Golden Edition
- PET 64 (Educator 64-1, CBM 4064)
- Educator 64-2
- SX-64
- C128
- C128D
- C65 (unreleased)
- C64GS (C64 Games System)
- Japanese C64 (Katakana symbols)

Though they're technically all very similar to the basic C64 design, I'm afraid.
The differences are rather in detail, like SID version or VIC II (and all flawed in a different way, still).

Depends on how you look at it.
I would say that the C128 is not a C64 design at all. It's an entirely different machine, which happens to have a C64-compatible mode.
Same goes for the C65.

All the others are basically more or less the same machine in slightly different cases/form factors, and in general there are two generations of chipsets, the 65xx and the 85xx. The early machines would use 65xx, and later models will use 85xx. They are functionally the same, except for a small VIC-II bug in the 85xx series, and the SID sounding slightly different, as mentioned earlier.
The C64GS is a special case in that the hardware is basically a full C64, but there's no keyboard, and some connectors are also not available on the outside, even though they exist on the board. The main difference with a normal C64 board is that they pointed the cartridge port upward instead of backward. So in theory, you could attach a keyboard, disk drive, datasette, printer etc to a C64GS, if you soldered on the required connectors and removed the case to expose them.

Oh, and by the way, there was also the "MAX Machine", an early machine based on the same 6510, VIC-II and SID as the C64, but with only 2KB of memory, as it was aimed to be a game console, using cartridges to store the games: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAX_Machine

Scali wrote on 2023-09-27, 14:38:

Depends on how you look at it. I would say that the C128 is not a C64 design at all. It's an entirely different machine, which h […]
Show full quote

Jo22 wrote on 2023-09-27, 13:42:

There are a couple of C64 models, strictly speaking. […]
Show full quote

There are a couple of C64 models, strictly speaking.

- C64
- C64 II (C64C)
- C64G
- "Aldi-C64"
- C64 Golden Edition
- PET 64 (Educator 64-1, CBM 4064)
- Educator 64-2
- SX-64
- C128
- C128D
- C65 (unreleased)
- C64GS (C64 Games System)
- Japanese C64 (Katakana symbols)

Though they're technically all very similar to the basic C64 design, I'm afraid.
The differences are rather in detail, like SID version or VIC II (and all flawed in a different way, still).

Depends on how you look at it.
I would say that the C128 is not a C64 design at all. It's an entirely different machine, which happens to have a C64-compatible mode.
Same goes for the C65.

All the others are basically more or less the same machine in slightly different cases/form factors, and in general there are two generations of chipsets, the 65xx and the 85xx. The early machines would use 65xx, and later models will use 85xx. They are functionally the same, except for a small VIC-II bug in the 85xx series, and the SID sounding slightly different, as mentioned earlier.
The C64GS is a special case in that the hardware is basically a full C64, but there's no keyboard, and some connectors are also not available on the outside, even though they exist on the board. The main difference with a normal C64 board is that they pointed the cartridge port upward instead of backward. So in theory, you could attach a keyboard, disk drive, datasette, printer etc to a C64GS, if you soldered on the required connectors and removed the case to expose them.
IMG_4260.jpg

I agree. The C128 was more of a real Personal Computer with 80 char mode and a Z80 CPU.
On the others hand, it was often merely used in C64 mode.

The Basic v7 and everything else was much better than on a normal C64.
GEOS 128 was running at higher graphics fidelity than its 64 counterpart, too.

Sadly, if being using CP/M v3, the Z80 was forced to slow down, so that the C64 chipset components would work on internal bus.

The internal floppy drive also existed in external form, as VC 1570/1571.
It could work with C64s, too, but had to use the slow serial interface.

Those popular floppy speeders didn't fully work with them, though, since they expected a basic 1541 series drive (the wall bumper type). Or so I heard.

The 1541C had a light barrier sensor and a different firmware, making it incompatible with certain things (parallel interface etc.)

Quite a few C64 users seemed to have downgraded it to be more compatible by installing old firmware and removing optical sensor (*crash*, *click*, *dung dung dung*).