Random Vogons: Seller should have packed it way better, double boxed, foam in between (Which prolly doubles volumetric shipping rate also) this vintage stuff is very rare and delicate and should have taken super extra care and shipped it with a premium service.

Also Vogons...

keenmaster486 wrote on 2024-01-20, 18:58:

He wants to charge $240 for shipping.

But you're right, if he really wants the money he should sell the cards out of it for $200+ a pop and send the rest to recycling.

I'm kind of mad that complete systems don't get "sum of parts plus 20% premium", it certainly encourages the breaking up of original machines and the splitting up of original and acquired software bundles.

edit: just did a CA to NY spitball for USPS ground for only the monitor which well packed might end up as 20" cube and that came back at $144.05 ... the system unit is also a chonker and won't be way cheaper.

No one is bidding on it because $888 starting bid + $240 shipping is too rich for someone who likely just wants the 5162, a rare machine that absolutely should not be "sent to recycling" after the cards are harvested from it. At least he isn't doing that.

My point is that he would have better luck separating the items to reduce shipping cost per item, setting the starting bid for the 5162 lower, and letting the bidding process do what it's designed to do, take advantage of competition between buyers to maximize the final price for the seller. He will find out what it's actually worth after the bidding is over. Not very complicated!

keenmaster486 wrote on 2024-01-20, 18:58:

There's this guy on eBay who wants $888 (starting bid!) for an IBM XT 286 and 5151 monitor together. He wants to charge $240 for […]
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There's this guy on eBay who wants $888 (starting bid!) for an IBM XT 286 and 5151 monitor together. He wants to charge $240 for shipping.

Every time he lists it, it gets 0 bids. Zero. There is an "offer" button, but presumably he is rejecting them all.

Every time it runs out with 0 bids, he relists it. He's done this like 10 times now.

Very amusing. I'd offer him $300-$400 or something like that but I'm not paying $240 for shipping. Maybe he should list the two items separately.

I see something similar for all sorts of vintage items. Craziest thing I have seen yet: A proprietary 1m USB-Cable for a Sony MD player. The seller wants like 400 bucks for it with 170-something for shipping. I have written some of them asking if this is a mistake. I know they won't answer but I sometimes make a sport out of it.
The thing is that they probably wait for that one desperate person that gets up everyday and that has some bad case of vintage fever. Everybody else just looks up the widely available howto's showing how to replace the proprietary port with a USB-C port...which is basically a 1:1 mapping of the pins. But there's always that one desperate person.

keenmaster486 wrote on 2024-01-20, 18:58:

There's this guy on eBay who wants $888 (starting bid!) for an IBM XT 286 and 5151 monitor together. He wants to charge $240 for shipping.

If he's shipping a monitor and especially if he's shipping two separate boxes, I can kind of see a $240 shipping cost. Shipping costs are by weight and those old systems can be quite heavy.

Assuming things are packed extremely well, $240 to ensure safe arrival doesn't seem that unreasonable to me.

I'd rather pay more for shipping than have it shipped poorly and risk irreparable damage.

marbury wrote on 2024-01-20, 23:20:

I see something similar for all sorts of vintage items. Craziest thing I have seen yet: A proprietary 1m USB-Cable for a Sony MD player. The seller wants like 400 bucks for it with 170-something for shipping. I have written some of them asking if this is a mistake. I know they won't answer but I sometimes make a sport out of it.
The thing is that they probably wait for that one desperate person that gets up everyday and that has some bad case of vintage fever. Everybody else just looks up the widely available howto's showing how to replace the proprietary port with a USB-C port...which is basically a 1:1 mapping of the pins. But there's always that one desperate person.

I wonder if some of these prices might be generated automatically via a pricing algorithm. On occasion I've seen the same products with price differences a couple order of magnitudes apart.

Ebay does have a suggested or automatic pricing feature, so maybe people are just pricing things without realizing their prices are completely out-of-proportion to what might sell.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-01-20, 23:24:

I wonder if some of these prices might be generated automatically via a pricing algorithm. On occasion I've seen the same products with price differences a couple order of magnitudes apart.

Ebay does have a suggested or automatic pricing feature, so maybe people are just pricing things without realizing their prices are completely out-of-proportion to what might sell.

Hmm, might be. Even though I think that people selling vintage gear at high prices usually know what they are doing. At least I wrote that cable person asking if it was a mistake to have the prices that high. They didn't answer. I mean it might be a mistake. But I once offered an AT-Case and accidentally added a 0 too many. Didn't take long until somebody wrote me. So I guess those people might receive a good number of messages about such high prices.

BTW my favourite Album is "Nothing Lasts... But Nothing Is Lost" 😉

marbury wrote on 2024-01-21, 00:17:

BTW my favourite Album is "Nothing Lasts... But Nothing Is Lost" 😉

Always nice to meet a fellow Shpongle fan. 😁

Sadly, I don't think prices are ever going to ever come back down to Earth, especially for "desirable" parts. Like others have said, as the hardware ages and more of it gets trashed or recycled, supply and demand kicks in.

Hardware that I gave away just 10 years ago is now going for hundreds of dollars, or more, and I think it's pure madness.

I know many of us prefer real hardware, but this is a huge driving force for me in terms of hardware emulation and modern source ports. Even if the hardware fades into the past, at least the software will live on.

I'm also a huge supporter of the "modern alternatives" idea, such as recreating hardware using FPGA, using a mix of modern and classic (but still manufactured) parts to build a modern version of a system, simulating via software, or creating completely new hardware that can act as a replacement for older parts. This is why I like projects like the Commander X16, MiSTer, MaxiMite and PicoMite, Z80-MBC2, The C64, and countless others that are popping up everywhere.

One other thing I find cool is re-purposing older industrial hardware that still has support for older operating systems like DOS and early Windows, but sadly, these will also disappear in time. 🙁

Here's a few things been crossing my mind.

Younger folk who decide to buy retro stuff have a different view of the value of money, and don't have any historical perspective on what things "should" cost. So they are less likely to think a price is too high from the get-go. And they may have enough money, or be willing to spend it on bragging rights.

Older folk have to face up to the likelihood of death in the coming years, or decrepitude, worstening eyesight and hearing, arthritis and worse, and how long they might use any retro gear for. Waiting for prices to drop becomes less and less attractive for those still in the market, and you can't take it - money or retro gear - with you when you go. (Of course alongside that for some there can be a sense of ennui about the whole thing, which works in the opposite direction.)

That's the context within which the hoarders and price gougers work.

keenmaster486 wrote on 2024-01-20, 22:20:

too rich for someone who likely just wants the 5162, a rare machine that absolutely should not be "sent to recycling" after the cards are harvested from it. At least he isn't doing that.

My point is that he would have better luck separating the items to reduce shipping cost per item, setting the starting bid for the 5162 lower, and letting the bidding process do what it's designed to do, take advantage of competition between buyers to maximize the final price for the seller. He will find out what it's actually worth after the bidding is over. Not very complicated!

Well the last 5162 to sell went for $1,199 with just system unit and model M keyboard. If the one you're talking about was listed low and someone grabbed it for say $500 because the real collectors were busy that week it absolutely could be bought by someone intending to turn a profit by stripping it and dumping leftovers.

I dunno where you think it should be priced but there was a max of 50,000 units produced with over 2 million 5160 XTs in comparison. I've got a rough rule of thumb that things need to be 4 times rarer to be double the price of something else, works out across a lot of comparable to each other antiques and collectibles, going by that with 5160s going at about 200, then it's around 3 times 4 as rare which would double 3 times giving about $1600.

Younger people is not the problem. Because generally they don't have the money.
Maybe there are few with money to spare, and a passion for old stuff, but they are too few to get the price inflated.

For what I seen there are two main problems.
The middle age people who run into a middle age crisis at this point in time. And they try to enter in this world without any clue.
Internet, anyone make the prices based on what they see online, plus maybe a bit more, because why not. It's a self-perpetuating problem.

There are people out there who really believe to buy gold.
I know for sure of a guy who wanted to buy an old console to leave as heritage for his daughter. Fortunately for him, he contacted an honest person, who convinced him to desist.
I know about a console got for 100 bucks, and sold for 1000. Because the buyer wonted an old stock item. So the sellers gave him what he wanted. They found a bad shaped console with a good box, then they spot a good console in another place, then they managed to get the manuals, and all the other accessories and they so they gives made a patchwork of stuff to sell to this guy. And no, before someone ask. This people don't want to know where the stuff come from. They want to believe that is an old stock unit. So they don't ask.
There is a lot of bad things out there. Fake bids to inflate the prices. Fake buyers for lots to keep the price down.

The main problem for me is us.
The point is still the same. If you think the price for something is too high, don't buy it! It's simple.
The point is don't have rush. We don't really need this stuff. It's an hobby. We lived half of our live, without that stuff, and we lived well. So, we can definitely stay the same amount of years without.
It's not a race. The point is not who have more stuff, or who paid less that thing. No one win.
Don't fall in the trap of the last item. There still a lot of stuff out there. And the sources still the same, mostly cellars, attics and garages.
Plus someone who sell his stuff because, a new child is coming, and the wife don't want that garbage around. From time to time an old store.

What is happening with retro electronics, already happened with other stuff, like retro furniture, stamps, old models, probably old toys, and so on.
This is nothing new.

And no. We are not saving historical items. Almost none of this stuff deserve to be preserved.
Exactly the same happened with furniture. Stuff who once was sold for his weight in gold, now is good only for the fire.
Of course there are some very important items in the computer history. Like the first computers, mostly valve stuff. And some few items.
The rest is only mass produced products. I mean, with this logic every electronic device must be preserved, because soon or later that will be representing a particular moment in time.
But even no.

To be clear. I have nothing against who try to sell stuff at high prices. I even hope for them to get what they hope.
But, I have to admit that was a lot more funny in the old days. When we, the mad people, who got old garbage from houses and dumpsters.
And it was more logical. People sold his old stuff instead of thrash it. And other people get old stuff saving money. Everyone was happy.

It's even funny that the same people who now sell their stuff on internet for a lot of money, one was the same who where happy when you comes to get rid off their garbage for free.
I don't know. Maybe I'm nostalgic even for this. Maybe even my old days in retrogaming now are retro.

Oh well.

Things are worth the price people pay for it at the time of transaction. Prices fluctuate because of the buyer and seller.

I remember the first time I saw the 5162 in the mid 90s. Yes, not particularly common as I had not seen it before then. Someone had bought at least a dozen of them surplus. I wouldn't be surprised they didn't even pay more for them as one would pay for one today. I never thought it was anything other than a strange AT in a smaller form factor (usually ATs were in larger cases as you know). If I had known could have been rare, maybe I should have pressed to get a complete unit. But that would have been unlikely ever to consider it as then, I was trying to get rid of all my 286s, so why pick up yet another? Even today, I kind of doubt the benefit of that specific model over any other computer. Me then in the 90s still is much as me today. I miss my earlier 286 that I had, but that was a different, and really a better machine anyway.

Take Model M keyboards, which were also popular with the ATs. It wasn't even that many years ago, you could essentially get them for a few bucks or for free anywhere you look. I never would consider buying one now for the prices people pay.

So as for the market, I would suspect even if the 50k production run for the 5162 is true, I think that the remaining supply for the 5162 is exceeding the demand, given there are units not selling for the price listed. At least there aren't really people collecting them, as otherwise a good model would be worth the price to snatch it. So I'm saying there are plenty around. Will the price drop? That's up to the seller. So I dispute rare. I dispute rare on alot of things people are trying to get around here. I agree that there are regional issues that make it hard to acquire in certain countries where the item did not really exist. But on face value, you can get it, if you want to spend the money. I would suggest prices are high for people, and people are just saying it's just not worth it that much for them. I'm generally in that crowd.

The low estimate on 5162 is 20,000 units... but from a functional standpoint, yeah, they're a low end 286 that's a PITA compared to late AT 286 clones which have 30 pin SIMM sockets, you can have a better machine for a tenth the price. I would not be paying near market value for one, because I don't want one that much. My rule of thumb above is really to guesstimate how much is too much in a thin market for a rarer thing, it's not linear because pool of buyers gets smaller as price increases rather than being a constant "everyone could pay this if they wanted" . Model M pricing would probably indicate being overvalued at what they get now, but really there's no other much wanted keyboard with a big enough market to compare so it's kinda hard to tell. That pricing is then all demand factor vs actual rarity, like IMO Voodoo 3 cards, high demand factor, not really all that rare. Then Number Nine Revolution IV PCI, probably rarer than V5 but definitely rarer than V3, but not a haloed gaming card so it barely hits a par with the 2D Matroxes.

But anyway, nobody's gonna logic down the high prices, particularly when they are not outliers.

edit: heh, that's what I get for not looking for 6 months, some Revolution IV have been selling higher, I am not sure if that's just because everything else that age got picked out or they found their market.

Although this depends on the item, I have found that locally prices have actually gone down by an amount that can be felt. Ebay is insane though! If we didn't have such a terrible international marketplace prices might have been better everywhere. I don't think known items are ever going to drop down to "reasonable" amounts again though

I think the elevated prices are here to stay. All it takes is one buyer being willing to pay exaggerated pricing, and one seller who does a search and saw it sell for that price.
They then assume that's the value of said item, right or wrong that's how it works.

Sadly I think you are right.

Jasin Natael wrote on 2024-01-23, 21:55:

I think the elevated prices are here to stay. All it takes is one buyer being willing to pay exaggerated pricing, and one seller who does a search and saw it sell for that price.
They then assume that's the value of said item, right or wrong that's how it works.

Thankfully eBay has the "Make an offer" button and when seller of the desired item enables it you always can offer him a price you think is fair. More buyers will do this, more sellers will understand that their prices maybe a little bit high. Otherwise they will continue thinking that there is simply a low demand.

the3dfxdude wrote on 2024-01-21, 16:58:

Things are worth the price people pay for it at the time of transaction. Prices fluctuate because of the buyer and seller.

Jasin Natael wrote on 2024-01-23, 21:55:

I think the elevated prices are here to stay. All it takes is one buyer being willing to pay exaggerated pricing, and one seller who does a search and saw it sell for that price.
They then assume that's the value of said item, right or wrong that's how it works.

that's it right there. As long as one person buys something its not unreasonable of a seller to await another buyer who is wiling to pay the larger price

it's a waiting game and there seems always to be those willing to pay more

except often there isn't... we've all watched items go round and round for months never being bought and then just disappearing - so either they were bought elsewhere (probably at a lower price) or no one bought it

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2024-01-26, 05:41:

Jasin Natael wrote on 2024-01-23, 21:55:

I think the elevated prices are here to stay. All it takes is one buyer being willing to pay exaggerated pricing, and one seller who does a search and saw it sell for that price.
They then assume that's the value of said item, right or wrong that's how it works.

Thankfully eBay has the "Make an offer" button and when seller of the desired item enables it you always can offer him a price you think is fair. More buyers will do this, more sellers will understand that their prices maybe a little bit high. Otherwise they will continue thinking that there is simply a low demand.

Yeah, that certainly helps. Most of the things I buy on eBay are via Best Offer.
Sadly not all sellers do this, or sometimes their idea of a fair offer is 1% off the regular buy now price.