VOGONS


First post, by st31276a

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I cannot say it better than Dijkstra himself in 1972:

The major cause of the software crisis is that the machines have become several orders of magnitude more powerful! To put it quite bluntly: as long as there were no machines, programming was no problem at all; when we had a few weak computers, programming became a mild problem, and now we have gigantic computers, programming has become an equally gigantic problem.
— Edsger Dijkstra, The Humble Programmer (EWD340), Communications of the ACM

The state of "modern" software is abysmal.

Imagine, the modern electron ui insanity of spawning the equivalent of a chromium tab for every ui window, just to be able to do modern things on it programmers have come to expect? Causing the ownage of 250 million Teams users by means of an excellent javascript injection / jailbreak / payload delivery exploit.

Imagine, glibc iconv() including an "rce" charset masquerading as extended chinese for the last 24 years. This one was almost certainly utilized in zero day kits out there.

Imagine, the modern architecture itself, not only being actively backdoorded with Intel ME, AMD PSP and the undocumented registers in the apple chips, but also being vulnerable to a whole portfolio of speculative data exfiltration attacks.

The modern mantras of keeping your software updated seems important on the surface, since many of these exploits are patched as they are found, and not patching them is just asking for it. However, with referral to the quote above, I sometimes wonder if, in spite of all the patching going on, is the software not still getting worse and worse in terms of undetected and undisclosed security problems?

In my opinion, every system online today is hackable with zero day exploits existing out there in the wild, that are known in certain circles but not yet "discovered" in the public domain. Not everybody finding bugs discloses them, as more money is to be made by selling them as exploits. These exploits are just used very sparingly and judiciously, as overdoing it would lead to their discovery and fixing.

Obviously I do not like the status quo, but it is impossible for myself alone to do something about it.

Running older software with known bugs is considered a way worse thing to do by most people.

I wish there were a community somewhere out there that patches the old stuff to fix the known security issues, so that they can be securely used today, by those who still care for their old hardware.

In terms of network security, I have a soft spot for the i586 architecture. It is fast enough to forward traffic at reasonable speeds, yet old enough not to be overtly backdoored and simple enough not to be a victim of speculative attacks. The only hardware feature it is missing is support for the nx bit in the page tables.

This thing is be able to run the latest 2.4 kernel very well, so that it can do nat and conntrack. If there only existed a glacier-time-stable (GTS 😀 maintained version of the 2.4 kernel. Putting such a router between your internet line and network should be very effective to keep out the side channel attacks that use the network as a medium, at least. You can also blackhole network blocks you don't like here, such as those belonging to the facebook and their ilk.

Older but stable and patched httpd, sshd and c libraries would also be a bonus.

Does somebody know where those who do this congregate, or do you think I am being unnecessarily crazy?

Reply 1 of 6, by DosFreak

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If the question is specifically if there are maintained distros using old Linux kernels for usage on old hardware for firewall/router usage then I would ask why not use BSD which does support old hardware? There shouldn't be any concern over lack of new development for features (Wayland, etc) since it's a firewall/router.

The amount of work needed to secure the entire stack from firmware,kernel,applications is so much work I'm not sure I'd trust an old or even supposedly maintained Linux distro for such a task. Hell, I wouldn't use a modern Linux distro on supported hardware as a firewall/router except to play with. 😉

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Reply 2 of 6, by st31276a

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DosFreak wrote on 2024-05-14, 11:16:

Hell, I wouldn't use a modern Linux distro on supported hardware as a firewall/router except to play with. 😉

I hear you.

I would trust a real firewall even less. Recall palo alto networks “telemetry” features exploit of the other day.

It would probably pay to learn bsd, that is not a bad idea. I lean towards openbsd and netbsd as a second choice from the little I know about them.

Kernel 2.0.40, the moss covered tortoise, was supposed to be such a kernel, especially due to its popularity in floppy router distros. It looks as if the moss eventually covered it entirely, though. (And no -m state support makes it kinda meh)

I am thinking long term about some of my personal internet facing stuff I keep online for various reasons. I do not care for the new way.

Reply 3 of 6, by bakemono

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st31276a wrote on 2024-05-14, 10:51:

The state of "modern" software is abysmal.

Yes. But my criticisms of it might be different than yours.

There was an article referenced on hacker news entitled "five worst ideas in tech" or something like that. At one point I considered writing a rebuttal, but never did because I couldn't find the original article again. One of the points is that the current concept of 'security' is completely wrong and upside-down and makes no sense. We are supposed to fear random, nameless hackers who may or may not exist, and in response to that fear we are supposed to grant total access and control to big tech / big government. But it was big tech who basically made remote code execution mandatory. You must run the JS. You must install the updates. That is the opposite of security. Once you've ceded control over what runs on your machine, I would argue that you've already lost. Sure, you can try to build a fence around it after the fact to limit the damage, but the way this is being done is also bonkers because of the focus on "users". (Another of the true 'worst ideas in tech': that the word 'personal' in the term 'personal computer' is somehow a synonym for 'multi-user'.) When the user of the machine is the OWNER of the machine then their access and their data should be the highest priority. Putting arbitrary limits on the owner while a rogue process is allowed to molest their files is not security.

Of course, the problems with modern software are in no way limited to security.

Running older software with known bugs is considered a way worse thing to do by most people.

Not me. I run old software all day long and nobody can stop me 😀 (People keep trying to interfere, by making everything 'require' the latest crapware. I'm not falling for it.)

again another retro game on itch: https://90soft90.itch.io/shmup-salad

Reply 4 of 6, by Errius

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This happened to me a few years ago: I was running a programming IDE with Team Fortress 2 in the background, working on a program but also occasionally alt-tabbing to play the game. Then when I tried to compile my program I couldn't, because the target executable was locked. When I went to see what was locking it, it was Steam.

i.e. Valve had just downloaded my program to their servers, presumably because running development software while playing a game raised a 'hacker!' red flag with their software.

Has anyone else experienced this?

Is this too much voodoo?

Reply 5 of 6, by st31276a

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bakemono wrote:

Of course, the problems with modern software are in no way limited to security.

Running older software with known bugs is considered a way worse thing to do by most people.

Not me. I run old software all day long and nobody can stop me 😀 (People keep trying to interfere, by making everything 'require' the latest crapware. I'm not falling for it.)

Wholeheartedly agree.

I also use old stuff, but I don’t always say it out loud.

The problem with modern security is that it is mainly theater. Security starts with what you don’t do, not with what you insist on doing anyway and coating it with shield icons and green tick marks.

Reply 6 of 6, by st31276a

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Errius wrote on 2024-05-14, 15:47:

This happened to me a few years ago: I was running a programming IDE with Team Fortress 2 in the background, working on a program but also occasionally alt-tabbing to play the game. Then when I tried to compile my program I couldn't, because the target executable was locked. When I went to see what was locking it, it was Steam.

i.e. Valve had just downloaded my program to their servers, presumably because running development software while playing a game raised a 'hacker!' red flag with their software.

Has anyone else experienced this?

These things are malware.

I am a great anti-fan of steam or any other games launcher / store / spyware crap that modern gamers think is normal.

Real games are copied from your nas to the thing you want to play them on. Then you run the exe file and the thing works.