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Getting old software/games running on older hardware.

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Postby kithylin » 2016-7-14 @ 22:35

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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby tincup » 2016-7-15 @ 01:20

Yes! it can be done as you've demonstrated. First step is an early PCIe gen motherboard with chipset drivers that support W9x. A number of fairly easily sourced and not too expensive s775 based mobos to chose from allow P4/C2D cpu options. Next the modded v9291 nVidia drivers for 7x cards - I run a 7900GTX in this case. It's 512 VRAM triggers the W98 ram limit right off the bat regardless of how much system ram in use use - so I yielded to the versitile RLOWE memory patch - and loaded on ram. 2gb system ram - nuts for 98 but its an XP dual boot box so it make sense. Tinkering with BIOS settings will probably be necessary too - Hyperthreading, sata vs ide, ACPI etc..

A "Super98" system is cool since you can run W98 games natively at silly resolutions, and as some Glide Wrappers work in W98 also run glide games at silly resolutions too. All under native W98 with no need for fussy XP/W7 workarounds etc... a fun project!
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby kithylin » 2016-7-15 @ 01:29

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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby tincup » 2016-7-15 @ 01:50

I understand.. If you want to stay purist then choose a combination of VRAM and system ram that works (without the RLOWE patch). The process is a bit "touchy feely" - a 256mb GPU will always boot with 256 system ram, but you may also find you can boot with a bit more VRAM or a bit more system ram. My goal was at least 1gb system ram so after testing a bunch of motherboards and hand edited windows settings to no avail I popped for the RLOWE patch and found what I was looking for. But even so, I'm pretty sure I got a 7900GT/256 running with 512 system ram right out of the box. In fact I keep one handy in case I want to roll back to an un-modded W98 setup - that's still crazy mad for 98.

Also of note: It's sometimes necessary to re-run the RLOWE patch with different switches if you alter installed system or VRAM. I had to do that going from 2gb to 4gb system ram.
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby kithylin » 2016-7-15 @ 02:08

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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby tincup » 2016-7-15 @ 02:35

kithylin wrote:..Does anyone here have any information about using 1GB video ram video cards with 512MB system ram in a win98se system?.


Not yet but I'm patiently tracking down a 7950GTX/1gb to test the possibility. I'm fairly confident it won't given my experience with 512/512 setups, but my memory is not ironclad nor my log notes so complete that it might.. really I need to search vogons for my posts on the W98/7900GTX build a few years back..

By the way this is a great project of yours.
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby kithylin » 2016-7-15 @ 02:56

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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby tincup » 2016-7-15 @ 03:18

Each GPU has 512mb allocated and there are 2 GPUs - so basically an GTX in SLI. I'm going to check out the Quatro as I know nothing about it. But as I understand it the 7950gx2 is the fastest 7x card that runs on modded NV dirvers.

As an aside I ran 2x 7800GT/256 SLI from 2005-2011 - not a bad combo the first few years but I began to sour on SLI due to micro-stutter issues and flaky game compatibility. The 7950gx2 probably exhibits similar behavior which is why I'm being patient and waiting for an inexpensive part to surface - honestly the 7900GTX is a beast even for XP let alone W98 :)
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby kithylin » 2016-7-15 @ 03:39

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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby tincup » 2016-7-15 @ 03:46

So the card would beef up the XP component (GTX SLI) but leave W98 somewhat diminished - a less interesting proposal indeed - especially considering the potential downside of SLI to begin with. BTW I wasn't aware of the SLI limitation in W98 - really hadn't thought it through to be honest. I'm used to V2 SLI and "assumed". Never assume haha... I'll stick with the 7900GTX - great card and impressive HSF cooling..
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby kithylin » 2016-7-15 @ 03:58

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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby agent_x007 » 2016-7-15 @ 07:12

So... just wanted to say I have this :
SiSoft Sandra 99.png

3DMark01 SE.png

And it works OK, for the most part :)

No SLI, and I did try 8800 GTX on this PC.
"Widows Protection error" on loading screen just after restart from loading moded 82.69 driver.
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby kithylin » 2016-7-15 @ 07:13

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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby agent_x007 » 2016-7-15 @ 07:24

kithylin wrote:"For the most part" .. What does it not do? I'm curious. Also, your pictures there aren't linking to any larger versions.. just the thumbnails.
Fixed.

For example : I get artifacts/bad performace in first test of any 3DMark (just after boot).
If I abort test and run it again - everything works fine (no artifacts/bad performance).

EDIT : For anyone interested, fullspecs of this highly "Experimental PC" :
CPU : Pentium Dual-Core E5800 rev. R0 with BSEL VID & FSB mods (1,385V VID + 1066MHz FSB)
RAM : GoodRAM 2x2GB 800MHz CL6 @ 533MHz CL4.4.3.9 CR1T (CPU-z gets in wrong btw)
MB : ASRock 4CoreDual-SATA2 R2 with Beta/Moded BIOS (L2.20) [for 4GB support]
GPU : NVidia GeForce 7900 GX2 (seen as 7950 GX2, because they use the same driver)
HDD : GoodRAM Iridium Pro 240GB [SATA3-type] SSD with MB controller in RAID mode to get that 200MB/s of awesomeness in Win98 :))
PSU : OCZ ZS-750 (750W - Overkill, but I have it as backup)
DVD-ROM + Floppy drive + 8GB pendrive (for "easy" file transfering).
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby kithylin » 2016-7-15 @ 08:00

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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby agent_x007 » 2016-7-15 @ 10:02

Yes, I know I'm using 1/2 of GPU and 1/2 of CPU :)
BUT using 1/2 of CPU = less heat, so I can cool this with Intel BOX cooler (the full height one).
GPU is a "I have it so why not" kind of deal. I do own 7900 GTX but 7900 GX2 is just... more fun.

As to Windows 98 Second Edition modifications :
I didn't used a modified installer CD, plain Win 98 SE PL version of Windows (booted from Win98 floppy boot disk).
Installation went without problems (because I installed only 512MB of RAM first).
SSD was formatted to FAT32 on win 7, and was seen by Win 98 even in RAID mode.
Files were copied, win installation went forward.
After first boot I installed HimemX patch (along with Config.sys/System.ini modifications), and unofficial Win 98 SE 2.1b PL service pack (it added pendrive USB support, installed win updates).
After those, 2x2GB worked like it should.
Then came the usual drivers for MB, sound card, LAN, etc. (btw. I'm using Audigy 2 ZS in this PC [with VxD driver], forgot about that and 1Gbit/s PCI D-Link LAN [Win98 compatible] in full spec listed earlier ;)).
Sidenote : I had to disable both onboard sound and LAN, to avoid hardware adress conflicts.
GPU driver (82.69) needed manual instalation.

After drivers, I installed IE 6.0, .NET 2.0, Java, KernelEX, dxwebsetup (offline version), the works.

^Is all of the above a "heavy modification of win98 core" ?

PS. Internet does work on this machine :)
Thanks to k-meleon 1.6.0 beta.
Opera and IE keep crashing within 20 sec :( (second, not so OK working part - k-meleon works fine).
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby kithylin » 2016-7-15 @ 10:08

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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby agent_x007 » 2016-7-15 @ 10:12

^True, thats why I added "experimental PC", before listing specs.

It's waaay beyond what Win98 machine should (in theory) look like.
I done this to show what can be done (and be stable enough), but I do not recommend using this as daily Win98 machine.

EDIT : I didn't try that. But I still have it assembled and ready to go.
One problem - I got work, and can't tinker with it too much other than in weekends (not enough time...).
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby kithylin » 2016-7-15 @ 10:34

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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby agent_x007 » 2016-7-15 @ 11:06

kithylin wrote:I think I can achieve that with this i945p platform and some day get Intel Core2Duo x6800 processor and see if I can't hit 4.5 - 4.8 ghz, and nvidia 7900 GTX, or maybe FX-5500 quadro. And hopefully should be 100% daily-driver stable too. Some day.
I see what you mean...
But 4,5-4,8GHz on X6800 ?
You want to LN2 the whole thing :D

3,5 - 3,8GHz is doable, but 3,65GHz+ requires 1,5V+ (at least on C2E X6800 I own).
3,2GHz can be done without adding more Vcore.
3,3GHz+ may require more, 3,4GHz will require more than stock.
3,3GHz (without adding Vcore), can be done on stock (high profile) Intel cooler.

Basicly : X6800's don't clock that well, B2 stepping on them sucks (compared to later rev. "G0").

Try doing what I did - PDC E5x00 with high multiplier and BSEL mods (MB needs 45nm support).
FSB mod will work if MB supports higher FSB.
VID mod should work on any motherboard with CPU support.

PS. That 4GHz on PDC E5800, is stable in WinXP :)
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