X58 + Yamaha7x4/AureaV1/2 Sound-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list(+i865/VIA) +research+ultimate configs, WIP- gurus needed

Getting old software/games running on older hardware.

Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-26 @ 08:23

Config and Drivers pack update:
- there were started JEMMEX is where should be JEMM386 - fixed
- added second ctsyn.ini for Creative SB configuration for IRQ7, because primary configuration is file, i did some test with !Live and often helping fidlle with IRQ..
- new CTsyn.ini - update, original creative ini wasnt the best one
- added info to autoexec how to test Low and High DMA channels
- burnmem.sys parameter calculation explained
- added FEDIT text editor, tell me if you know something better with windows key shortcuts (CTRL+C for clipboard) and search and replace box where i can copy text from clipboard, im tired of retyping..
- Creaive SB emulation wasnt working, because CTSYN parameter needs at the end of path "\" character, otherwise you get misleading incomplete config file missing SBport error, same error you get even when file doesnt exist at all - awfull code..
- Creative SB emulation driver where freezing with MSDOS 7 long PATH, when is was longer than 126 characters, so i completely removed longer MS-DOS 7+ path and option, it took some time to find out where is problem
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby Kamerat » 2018-7-26 @ 14:14

ruthan wrote:
Kamerat wrote:The YMF744 supports several DSP versions according to it's datasheet (page 21), perhaps changing the DSP will increase compatibility for some games? I'll guess you have to change it by poking around with the PCI registers as I'm not aware if SETUPDS are able to change it.

Thanks added to guide to todo section.. maybe someone with these skills me make in future some utility to some of this magic.

By the way that are expectation, what is exactly DSP version? What you be variable in other different versions? By the way in Yamaha is in config in SB line always T4 - SB RPO new, it be changed to something else, to improve compatibility too?

Here's how to change the DSP version using the PCISET utility:

ver 3.01 (default)
Code: Select all
pciset 0010 1073 43 01100000 00000000

ver 2.01
Code: Select all
pciset 0010 1073 43 01100000 00100000

ver 1.05
Code: Select all
pciset 0010 1073 43 01100000 01000000
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-26 @ 23:49

Kamerat wrote:Here's how to change the DSP version using the PCISET utility..:


Thanks, how to get which DSP version is currently used info? Second question is still what is all this about, what is best scenario for these changes?
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby Kamerat » 2018-7-27 @ 10:12

ruthan wrote: Thanks, how to get which DSP version is currently used info? Second question is still what is all this about, what is best scenario for these changes?

BloodyCactus made a tool for detecting the DSP version. I haven't tried changing the DSP on the YMF744, but I've done it on my Trident 4DWave-NX to gain better game compatibility (Death Rally liked DSP 3.02 instead of 4.05 and for Doom MBF it was the other way around).

Edit: This thread just got linked to in Phils latast video.
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Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-27 @ 14:29


That is moment when we become super famous, enjoy the glory:)
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Re: X58 (ICH10) PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-27 @ 22:19

I just tried SBDSP - It shows DSP 3.1, not i our list.. *.bat also show strange message:
Code: Select all
Your DSP is not revision 4.
You should not have Midi hanging note bug..
Last edited by ruthan on 2018-8-03 @ 13:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: X58 (ICH10) PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-27 @ 23:27

New guide and files and guide update:

Guide:
- added more SET Blaster Variable info + about default IRQ and history - to guide
- I also tested allmost all problematic games with SB !Live, i would say that 75%+ are working - i dunno if because of X58 or SB !Live, i have ems problems on this machine (580 KB, we discussion it in EMM thread), i will test problematic games with Yamaha too.. Info added to compatibility guide.
- I discovered that setmul on Core 2 E6600 machine is too slow, it make my Core E6600 i would say as slower 386 or even slower, so if game has runtime error 200 and is not for slow 386 - there is not solution (because slowdos is not solution and other slowdown are not working with EMS and no EMS no sound with Creative !Live).
- More info about Runtime Error 200 fixing utilities, exe exctraction etc..

Configs:
-fixed one wrong jump in Dos real modem it jumped to Protected mode.. all not block specific variables in block, has to use same preffixes like DE, DNE, DRM, DPM, DJX etc.. if some preffix not match its big chance that you discovered bug.. Lots of copy pasting and rewriting involved, because limiting possibilities of scripting and dos text editors.
- add faster keyboard reactions to autoexec:
MODE.COM CON: RATE=32 DELAY=1
- Dosmax executable add to package lines in config and autoexec- disabled by default experimental, its at the end of autoexec and in env block of config, sense of this package is move more things from conventional to upper memory
- possiblity of disable virtual cd rom drive for all cd rom branches, by one variable at the top of autoexec

Drivers / utils package:
- doslfn executable in package, not executed by config files, you run it from cmd, i a bit fear of compatibility problem, maybe i dont have any proofs..
- new version of CT mouse - 2.1
- XHDD alterantive hdd speedup driver experimental, disabled by default in cd-rom block if it would be ok, i will create HDDblock
- Added more Runtime 200 fixing utils and how to use them text files
- Added text info for MSRED usage
- added SBvarin.txt - with details about SET BLASTER variable
- added SBDSPIN - utility from BloodCactus to display current sound chips DSP version, regarding of info from Kamerat - its changable and could help compatibility. For change DSP is there PCI set utility and magic values - also added to package.
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Re: X58 (ICH10) PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-28 @ 08:00

Ok, i retested all problematic games with Core 2 - i865(ICH5) board + Geforce 6 + Yamaha 744, combination where ~60-70% of problematic games are working with SB !Live (same Core2+G6 machine).. and compatibility level is exactly the same as with X58 (ICH10), ~95+% of problems are exactly the same as with X58.

So conclusions are:
  • Problem are probably caused by Yamaha driver or its DSDMA,exed mode. If someone could test Yamahas in SB-link mode or DDMA mode it would be interesting to compare results, it problem is DSDMA or basic driver..
  • Its simply make no sense to use Core 2 + Yamaha combination, its slower that X58 for any other application and setmul l1d is too slow on Core 2 Duo, could be used only with limited set of games, on X58 it works much better.
    Main Core 2 machines advantage is still in much bigger sound cards choice possibilities.. Some should have PCI DDMA so maybe,maybe there would be better with Yamaha..
Last edited by ruthan on 2018-7-29 @ 07:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: X58 (ICH10) PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby dr_st » 2018-7-28 @ 11:47

ruthan wrote:- add faster keyboard reactions to autoexec:
MODE.COM CON: RATE=32 DELAY=1
This is actually a very nice hack. I did not know about all MODE.COM features when I was using DOS on my primary system years ago, but I had a small .COM program that does the same thing (by calling the same BIOS service that MODE.COM does). I remember the hex sequence and can recite it in my sleep: B8 05 03 BB 00 00 CD 16 B4 4C CD 21. :lol: Actually, some versions of Mortal Kombat and Mortal Kombat II mess up the repeat rate (set it to very slow and don't unset it), so you should rerun the command after playing these games.
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Re: X58 (ICH10) PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby Stretch » 2018-7-28 @ 18:21

According to this list, Jazz Jackrabbit needs a CPU patch for faster CPUs. List of CPU speed sensitive games
PC1: Win98SE - Via Apollo Pro Mobo - Pentium II 233 - 256 MB - Voodoo 3 1000 - Soundblaster 32
PC2: Win98SE - ASRock 775i65G R3.0 - Celeron 2.2 GHz - 2048 MB - Geforce FX5700 - Vortex 2 - SBLive SB0100 - YMF744
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Re: X58 (ICH10) PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-28 @ 18:36

Stretch wrote:According to this list, Jazz Jackrabbit needs a CPU patch for faster CPUs. List of CPU speed sensitive games

Yeah this typical Runtime 200, it is always solveable.. setmul l1d is solving this, or you could patch it with TP or CRT patch for all, i did it.. but it not solving sound problem, because there is specifil dpmi*.ovl which is not compatible with EMS - and Yamaha / SB !Live etc.. driver needs EMS, what is annoying that that dpmi*.ovl is detecting Sound card regardless of sound setup, so its not working even without sound. Only solution would be probably fix this *.ovl or bypass it somehow. Afaik only ESS and Aureal are only PCI soundcards for modern boards where sound driver doesnt need EMS.. and ESS probably works only with i865 and older, so this probably Aureal only territory.
I have some vortex 1 on the way ETA is 2 weeks.. but Agent already did some basic testing with it on X58.

Xatax and Tyrian, are using exactly same driver and has exactly same problem, to maybe it would be worth to some hex magic to bypass that not working SB detection, is someone would be able to it..
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Re: X58 (ICH10) PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby Stretch » 2018-7-29 @ 21:50

Jazz Jackrabbit FM and SFX worked for me with the computer in my signature (YMF 724 with PC/PCI and S-IRQ but I booted into MS-DOS with a floppy) with 3 different configs. The gfx were corrupt though when using umbpci, because my mobo isn't compatible with umbpci when booting from floppy. I also had to apply the tppatch because even a PII 233 is too fast.

    1
    JEMMEX.EXE I=TEST X=TEST MAX=16M

    2
    HIMEM.SYS
    EMM386.EXE RAM 16384

    3
    HIMEMX.EXE /MAX=64512
    UMBPCI.SYS
PC1: Win98SE - Via Apollo Pro Mobo - Pentium II 233 - 256 MB - Voodoo 3 1000 - Soundblaster 32
PC2: Win98SE - ASRock 775i65G R3.0 - Celeron 2.2 GHz - 2048 MB - Geforce FX5700 - Vortex 2 - SBLive SB0100 - YMF744
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Re: X58 (ICH10) PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-29 @ 22:29

Config:
- Fixed bad IRQ 5 in one Yamaha IRQ 7 block, i double checked all block it should be now all ok.

Compatibility:
Fallout 1 is now working fine, it took some persistence..
Quake 2 (Q2Dos) - project its working too, note that Yamaha is not used, because Q2DOS itself not working with EMS (memory allocation fail during map loading, starting with Yamaha sound fine..), so i have use realmode and internal onboard Realtek HD, because game can use sndpci library from MXP project. With my slimmer stock Xeon with slow ECC rams, 1600-1200 is unplayable only 15FPS, but 1024 - 40 and 800x600 (what has not interpolation on my 1600x1200 screen) - 60 FPS - G220 used as videocard, i maybe would even try my Voodoo 3 2000 PCI, because DOS Glide is supported too.

Stretch wrote: Jazz Jackrabbit FM and SFX worked for me with the computer in my signature (YMF 724 with PC/PCI and S-IRQ but I booted into MS-DOS with a floppy) with 3 different configs. The gfx were corrupt though when using umbpci, because my mobo isn't compatible with umbpci when booting from floppy. I also had to apply the tppatch because even a PII 233 is too fast.

Thanks for test and report, result is great, it means, that problem is not pure driver but DSDMA. Are you using SB-Link (especial Soundcard to MB cable) or DDMA mode? Your MB could probably do both. (its described in Yamaha guide - 1.5)?

I assume that Xatax (shareware) would with high probality work too same as Tyrian and there few other games like Judge Dread, Madspace and Fuzzy world which are using same dpmi*ovl .. BTW for check if some game using some file, im using some tree files output from some ultimate Dos collection, which someone done 10 years ago.. its just *.txt= it should be legal.

I know that is wild, but im not wrong Yamaha 72/4x is working in EMS only because of DSDMA.exe need EMS, how difficult would be to do some disassembly hack / write replacement to make it working with without EMS?
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Re: X58 (ICH10) PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby Stretch » 2018-7-30 @ 00:24

I'm using SB-Link a.k.a. PC/PCI.
PC1: Win98SE - Via Apollo Pro Mobo - Pentium II 233 - 256 MB - Voodoo 3 1000 - Soundblaster 32
PC2: Win98SE - ASRock 775i65G R3.0 - Celeron 2.2 GHz - 2048 MB - Geforce FX5700 - Vortex 2 - SBLive SB0100 - YMF744
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Re: X58 (ICH10) PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-30 @ 01:52

Stretch wrote:I'm using SB-Link a.k.a. PC/PCI.

Thank, added to guide, you are now super famous too..

Some good news JEMM is now working with Yamaha with new magic JEMM parameter NOVME, i was discovered by Kamerat in 2016 (clap your hands..), after that is floating somewhere.. few days ago Rayer discovered it from Kamerat and now it arrived to me and i tested it and its working.. Maybe it was in some guide around but i missed that.

I also did some test with X58 PCIE-PCI convertor, card is found, Rayers SMB can log details about it, but sound+music are not working in any games and setups cant detect it, i did this test because i saw some X58 board with 7xPCI-E long slots and overally cant have enough PCI slots.. I sort of expected that this will work. I used Asmedia 1083 chipset on adapter, there are others, but i only have this cheap one..
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Re: X58 (ICH10) PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-30 @ 06:35

Other update.

Drivers and Utils:
  • updated new Yamaha 3.16 driver version, older version 3.14 is still keept as backup in Yamaha drivers folder. I did all my testing for now with 3.14 modded for SIS chipsets, because it was last version which i found at Vogons Library (i didn overlook something..).. yeah i read about 3.16, but thought that there is only problem with version numbering. I downloaded 3.16 from Yamaha website.
    Is there any 3.14 to 3.16 change log? DSDMA in old packaged was already from 3.16.
    This versions setupsa is freezing during start it EMS mode, 3.14 was freezing only during saving in EMS mode.
    Is also discovered that only some files from original drivers where is new drivers package, does it meant that 3.16 is just upgraded or where YMFIRQ came from?
  • pathb benchmark added to quick CPU benchmark from Vogons, you can report results right here:
    viewtopic.php?f=24&t=53769
  • added TP7P5FIX TSR to mitigate Runtime errors 200 when its running, without patching or slowdowns..
  • mtrrlfbe.bat file to quick use this 2D graphics accelerator..
  • CraigPCI Hardware info utility added
  • dosgligl.png - Dos glide games +compatibility list Vooodo/Vooodoo2 included, its *.png so you could need some picture utility for DOS, i dont know anything particularly good and free
  • added possibility to boot with long file names enabled - File Wizard supports them, you can enable it at top of Autoexec for all branches, disabled by default, its eating 12KB
  • JEMM change for Yamaha, mentioned in previous post.
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Re: X58 (ICH10) PC+ Yamaha7x4 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list+research+ultimate branch configs, WIP- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-8-01 @ 14:01

Next update..

Configs:
- added explanation what means JEMM NOVME -V86-Mode Extensions on/off
- Fixed AurealV1 Real mode branch - there was bad IF
- Added possiblity of Ramdisk, disabled by default ( its in config.sys ramdisk block), you need to copy ramdisk.sys, from Windows/DOS folder for C:\Drivers. I used it for compatibility, disadvantage is that there no parameter for driver letter, so its loaded between harddisks and cd-roms. If you know that there are not issues with some free third party Ramdisk, i dont mind to change it.

Drivers/Utils Package
- added all releases of 3dfx Glide Dos drivers (its 1 file) for Voodoo 1/2/3 more info about package and V2/V3 with my modern machines + most worthy Dos GLide games patches. Its in 3Dfx folder.

Aureal V1 (Orchard NuSound 3D) at home - its working, even as advertised in Realmode.
I never heard so bad midi (not really similar to original music at all), in comparision with Yamaha or Creative !Live is really awfull and to be noted that some people like Rayer, even say that Yamahas midi is bad..
The plan is retest problematic Yamaha games first.
Last edited by ruthan on 2018-8-01 @ 21:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: X58 (ICH10) PC+ Yamaha7x4 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list+research+ultimate branch configs, WIP- gurus needed

Postby ZanQuance » 2018-8-01 @ 17:42

ruthan wrote:Aureal V1 (orchid one) at home - its working, even as advertised in Realmode.
I never heard so bad midi (not really similar to original music at all), in comparison with Yamaha or Creative !Live is really awfull and to be noted that some people like Rayer, even say that Yamaha's midi is bad..
The plan is retest problematic Yamaha games first.

You should hear how bad the Santa Cruz's dos OPL3/midi sounds, its WAY worse! ;)
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Re: X58 (ICH10) PC+ Yamaha7x4 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list+research+ultimate branch configs, WIP- gurus needed

Postby Falcosoft » 2018-8-01 @ 19:16

ruthan wrote: I never heard so bad midi (not really similar to original music at all), in comparision with Yamaha or Creative !Live is really awfull and to be noted that some people like Rayer, even say that Yamahas midi is bad..

Compared to Creative SB Live!'s FM emulation it is not so bad at all. I think you tested SB Live with GM while in case of Vortex you selected FM (Adlib) emulation.
The Live/Audigy in pure DOS can emulate Adlib/FM synthesis and also can provide built-in Genereal Midi support through Ensoniq's ECW soundfonts (it's not bad but it's not particularly good either).
The Aureal Vortex has no built-in GM support in DOS through soundfonts but it has working WaveBlaster compatible header. So with e.g. a DreamBlasterX2 you get much better GM support than with the SB Live/Audigy.
Both SB Live/Audigy and Aureal Vortex have rather bad FM emulation.

Choose your death :)

SB Live FM emulation (Monkey Island 2):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-HiLp5p820&t=40m10s
Aureal Vortex FM emulation (Monkey Island 2):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FJCnswIJiw&t=3m40s
Last edited by Falcosoft on 2018-8-01 @ 22:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: X58 (ICH10) PC+ Yamaha7x4 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list+research+ultimate branch configs, WIP- gurus needed

Postby ruthan » 2018-8-01 @ 22:31

Few notes:
- My card is Orchard NuSound 3D, it look cheap as cheap one. Photo., no midi header and these small headers - i hate them, i dunno how much particular manufacturer could cripple the card.
- i used links from above for first post - thx - "Yamaha 744 / Aureal Vortex V2/ SB live / Cmedia 8738 / ESS-Solo1 - Dos sound quality recording" line, you have better recordings and comparison, i will update it.
- I just unpacked card and put it in computer and tested whole 2 or 3 games (Doom 2+Blood), and true is sounded strange (soft, blurry,dull, highs too beepy(agressive for my ears) from first moment, i tried Doom II e01m01 was different than i know it and i never had such bad sound feeling with !Live, i theory i could be so long time with on accurate song that im used to it.. but i would notice it in DosBox.. I never was big fan you synthetic midi music, well i was always good as background especially for very action games, but i never cared too much except very few songs. I even had computers without soundcards quite for long,long time..
I didnt care too much about music until i was 12 and mc with Sepultura came across and after i was worse and worse, these are songs of my black heart:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5,6 (sort of midi, done by 1 crazy Norwegian), 7 // No much such hard music in games :(
So with e.g. a DreamBlasterX2 you get much better GM support than with the SB Live/Audigy.
Yeah but there still would be games without general midi support, which started to common in 1993?

---
Im starting more and more be interesed in ESS-Solo 1, but who knows, if it would work in my machine, is bigger chance that it wont, but maybe for my Core 2 machine it would be fine, driver also doesnt need EMS.
I a bit confused about FM chip on it, in Kamerat sheet is that is FM no emulation, in some text is that is emulated?
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