VOGONS


Reply 20 of 44, by ruthan

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Ok, so next question would be if you really need full Windows NT+, or is there way, how to make some minimal install hack to just use it as boot loader.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 21 of 44, by ruthan

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Ok, i have able to make FAT32 working with DR-DOS 7.0.3
with this tutorial:
https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/58013.h … =704925#t704925
and its first patch - 7.01-6., others patches will probably working too..
Problem is that share.exe which is needed to make taskmgr working, bitching about not compatible version and refuse to work..
So for FAT32 + taskmgr i would have to downgrade to DR-DOS 7.01, i would need to whole floppy image conversion mess again (migrate Vmware install to VBOX, that is quicker, its nice that is free in comparision with Vmware, Vbox is a mess) .

Update: With 7.0.1 all one of patches (i tested all of them) taskmgr and Fat32 working together. Update2: Author of tutorial above, recommend 7.01-06:
liam_on_linux: It depends if you want the stable version in which TaskMax seems reliable (7.01-6), the stable one in which TaskMax freezes on exit (for me anyway -- 7.01-7) or the unfinished work-in-progress version (7.01-8).
With this pached DR-DOS, i also can use ViewMax 2 from DR-DOS 6.01.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 22 of 44, by ruthan

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So probably last big problem which we have to solve with DR-DOS is EMS settings, but default there is EMS size 3MB and there is not parameter how big it should be in emm386 helpdevice parameters.. And Quake 1 is crashing on it, not enough EMS.
I found that there is some EMMXMA.SYS which could be set in KB but when i try in with /KB=8000 or other number i get strange message in Vmware:
EMMXMA.SYS: Requires a PS/2 Model 50,50Z,60 or compatible..
I not sure with EMMXMA is right way how to setup it, in description is this:
EMMXMA is a memory manager that provides EMS (expanded) memory for applications that can take advantage of it.
EMMXMA converts extended memory on XMA-compatible memory cards to expanded memory, which is mapped to a 64 KB window in upper memory.


I dunno maybe its because im not using Himem.sys, but it documentation:
http://www.drdos.com/dosdoc/usergeng/10ugch10.htm#539
, if i got i right is that you Himem should be used only for 286 and 386.

I assign to Virtual machine 64MB of RAM mem shows this:
Extended - 64 MB
Extented vix XMS ---- available for Programs 3MB
EMS - 3 MB

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 23 of 44, by NJRoadfan

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Quake 1 is protected mode software, it shouldn't need EMS at all. Disable the EMS page frame unless its actually needed by older software. Most people use EMM386 exclusively to take advantage of its creation of UMBs for loading drivers high.

As for a multitasking DOS, give OS/2 a try. After all its a "Better DOS than DOS", and it can be booted without Presentation Manager and go directly to a full screen command line.

Reply 24 of 44, by ruthan

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NJRoadfan wrote:

Quake 1 is protected mode software, it shouldn't need EMS at all. Disable the EMS page frame unless its actually needed by older software. Most people use EMM386 exclusively to take advantage of its creation of UMBs for loading drivers high.

Its a bit more complicated, i need EMS, because other DR-DOS Taskmgr not working - error incorrect version of operating system and want to your DR-DOS because of Taskswitching/Multitasking that main "selling" point.

I made new discovery without Taskmgr executed i have EMS working fine, whole 32 MB, but when is executed mem reporting only 3 MB of EMS, instead of 32 MB and that is problem. Otherwise without any mem manager (DR-DOS doesnt even need himem.sys is their tool for 286 and pre 386 HW) Quake is running fine, without taskmgr with 32 MB - Quake is also running fine. I tried taskmgr /? for help but there is nothing for memory setting, only switch from multitasking to task switching and when i tried it, i get again incorrent version of Operation system, that could be because of my previous FAT32 patching, for now i too lazy to return to 7.01 and retest it without it..

With taskmgr executed:

Screenshot 2018-09-13 00.31.32.png
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Screenshot 2018-09-13 00.31.32.png
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36.36 KiB
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2760 views
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Fair use/fair dealing exception

Without taskmgr executed:

Screenshot 2018-09-13 00.30.37.png
Filename
Screenshot 2018-09-13 00.30.37.png
File size
40.07 KiB
Views
2760 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

Rayer claims that he made it working, even in 2 instances, so there should be a way.

Update: I find out that there is taskmgr.ini with taskmanager memory settings.. I did not tested it yet, but there is some 3MB variable and other, so there is 99% chance that is what im searching..

NJRoadfan wrote:

As for a multitasking DOS, give OS/2 a try. After all its a "Better DOS than DOS", and it can be booted without Presentation Manager and go directly to a full screen command line.

I have few classical questions:

  1. How is new HW compatibility will it run of new machines? Im able to make MS-DOS working fine with X58 chipset and sound card. Will O2/S work on these too? How about Sound card drivers, need i OS/2 driver, or without presentation manager i can use DOS driver? I care only about few soundcards which are compatible with modern HW - Aureal Vortex 1/2, Yamaha 724/744/754 and ESS Solo 1..
  2. What is game compatibility from experience, or did someone some games compatibility matrix?
  3. Is there task switching or multitasking without presentation mode? Because otherwise i don see a point to use it, otherwise you will give me some info.

So far i tried OS/2 only in PCem and i had problem that i tried lots of Videocards ROMS and drivers, but i wasnt able to make higher resolution working.. i looks that there for slightly other version of videocards are there is some bug in PCem, from my brief experience, it looked like Windows 3.11 + networking, i wasnt amazed, Win 9x are for me more user friendly.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 26 of 44, by ruthan

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gdjacobs wrote:

OpenDOS 7.01.08 WIP also supports FAT32.

Yeah, for those who not know OpenDOS=updated DR-DOS by Udo K... but regarding of info from Liam turorial some link above, Taskmgr not working or freezing with 7.01.07 and 7.01.08, so 7.01.06 should be best one, but all info is based of one tutorial post, so nothing is set to stone.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 27 of 44, by ruthan

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I added some DR-DOS TaskMgr info to first post, its all theoretical, read all its docs, you will come hammer time.. On paper its sound very good, but we will see real compatibility with games. My testing could be influenced but Vmware DOS bugs, but unless someone will figure out how to start DR-DOS without its MBR code from Grub2 (own DR-DOS partition is not problem), or how to create nt bootloader minimal install, i will probably not test it with my physical machines..

Any results of your own testing are welcome.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 29 of 44, by RayeR

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ruthan wrote:

Ok, so next question would be if you really need full Windows NT+, or is there way, how to make some minimal install hack to just use it as boot loader.

No, just the NTLDR files are necessary (NTLDR, NTDETECT.COM, BOOTFONT.BIN, BOOT.INI)

I did my experiements on Lineo DR-DOS 7.03 not EDR-DOS by Udo...

Gigabyte GA-P67-DS3-B3, Core i7-2600K @4,5GHz, 8GB DDR3, 128GB SSD, GTX970(GF7900GT), SB Audigy + YMF724F + DreamBlaster combo + LPC2ISA

Reply 30 of 44, by ruthan

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RayeR wrote:

No, just the NTLDR files are necessary (NTLDR, NTDETECT.COM, BOOTFONT.BIN, BOOT.INI)

Thanks, only other problem could be partition boot record, because sure if for Grub2 is enough just copy the files to partion, its looking for partition boot record... But with Dos / Windows 9x you will need somehow put NT bootloader to MBR, without installation for sure.. I guess that Paragon HDD suite and its boot collector could fix it, you im not sure, because i never tried it in bootloader mode only, without proper NT install.. i guess that classic fixmbr form boot windows cd boot could it fix too, if you dont care about MBR rewriting (i do because i have there Grub code, i but is true that after mbr fix, i can recover Grub2 from BootRepairDisk).

RayeR wrote:

I did my experiements on Lineo DR-DOS 7.03 not EDR-DOS by Udo...

I think that there would be minimal or zero difference, all DOS executable except Diskcopy, are to same after patching and there only new ibm* files for fat32 and new command.com - i guest also mainly modified because of Fat32. And it dont seems that Caldera did too much work in period from 7.0.1 to 7.0.3.

gdjacobs wrote:

I can give you a DR-DOS MBR if you like.

That is not problem, problem is start DR-DOS without its own MBR.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 31 of 44, by gdjacobs

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ruthan wrote:

That is not problem, problem is start DR-DOS without its own MBR.

I often write the MBR with DD in Linux.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 32 of 44, by ruthan

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gdjacobs wrote:

I often write the MBR with DD in Linux.

Its good idea, how to do it exacly, back and recover?
BTW i what is exactly saved in MBR, only code to start bootloader or also partition structure info? Because i not sure, what will happen, if made MBR backup and resize some partion and recover MBR - will it continue to work, or it would fail?

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 33 of 44, by gdjacobs

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By default, the first 446 bytes of the MBR consists of code to scan the partition table for bootable entries, although other boot loaders add more features. The next 64 bytes define the primary partition table. It's all capped off with a two byte signature.
https://thestarman.pcministry.com/asm/mbr/STDMBR.htm

The MBR essentially passes execution to the Volume Boot Record (partition or floppy boot sector). Here, DOS usually must have code to locate and execute the DOS kernel (IBMDOS.COM, MS-DOS.SYS, etc). Part of the function of SYS.COM is to properly insert the boot code for the version of DOS in question.

To save an MBR with DD, simply use:

dd if=/dev/sdX# of=backup.mbr bs=1 count=446

or

dd if=/dev/sdX# of=backup.mbr bs=1 count=512

to include the signature and partition table

Writing the MBR is just the reverse, for instance:

dd if=backup.mbr of=/dev/sdX# bs=1 count=446

I've used this utility to write boot records in certain circumstances:
http://ms-sys.sourceforge.net/

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 34 of 44, by ruthan

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qdjacobs:: Thanks.

I started to test DR-DOS 7.0.1+patch 7.01.06 compatibility this FAT32 + Taskmgr working version, here is link to list.

Because its fastest way, i started to test with Vmware Wokrstation 12.5.9 virtual machine, so some Vmware bugs could be involved, plan is test problematic games, later with Virtualbox and on real machine. I also testing without sound card, because Vmware Dos sound support is half working at the best. Last important thing is that im testing with FAT32 on 100 GB virtual drive, because i dont thing that that FAT16 2GB is usefull for more modern DOS games because there are quite big when you use biggest installation. Im using DR-DOS EMM386 EMS-ON with default settings and without Taskmgr executed.
Plan is check which games are working without Taskmgr, before messing with Multitasking and general check DR-DOS is worthy of our time.

So far, i started with games which are usually easier to test, 91 games tested (plan is test 166 games which i tested during my sound cards testing), 81 are working, 10 not working, at least 2 of them have problem with DR-DOS implementation of FAT32 - there have problem to detect free disk space, so there assume that there is not enough space, maybe exist some limiter to that for real DOS, as for DosBox to bypass it.. Those 2 are working in Vmware with MS-DOS 7.1 fine. Few games refuse to work to because soundcard wasnt detected and there is not no sound mode, i marked them as not working, but there is huge change that they will work with real HW.

Any help with testing, especially on real DR-DOS 7.01 and games which are market as NOT OK machine is welcome, even with FAT16 partitions only. You can try Virtualbox too, to help to investigate what is Vmware bug and is not.

So far are results quite good, i personally expected worse results and there is always room for some new tricks, to make these games to work. By product of testing is Vmware DOS games compatibility result, but i would say, because of DOS sound card is implemented by some Vmware employer in its spare time.. its not big deal for now, in some games are FX working, in some Music, but never both together.

Only other main bummers with DR-DOS, which i can image could be:
1) If real HW sound cards MS-DOS driver will work with it so well as with MS-DOS.
2) If DR-DOS would have worse compatibility with real HW that MS-DOS.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 36 of 44, by ruthan

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Other interesting thing could DR-DOS inside PCem, if some have taste and time to test it.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 37 of 44, by ruthan

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157 games tested - 126 are running, 31 not, 10 to go.. after i will retest problematic games in Vbox, FAT16 partition, Vmware MS-DOS 7.1 and after is testing on physical machine needed for games which would be still in on "not ok" state, without clean explanation - see bellow some problem is obvious.

I dunno yet how many problems are Vmware problems, but there would be some, i didnt cant it exactly but ~10 print out that but free space on FAT32 recognition bug on screen, its DR-DOS 7.01.06 bug for sure its caused by patched command.com or for probably by these 2 ibm*.com in root, so that FAT32 patch has its bugs.. but its better if problem would be on games side, in pure theory some ASM magician can fix this bug, im not sure about source code if is available or not.. Annoying workaround would be create small FAT16 partition and copy problematic games on it.
My educated guess is that also other not working game could be problem with that FAT32 implementation, only not print it on screen.

There is also similar error, which i saw only with 2 games - its "Packaged file is corrupt."" data are fine, with same virtual disk MS-DOS is running fine.. I find Vogons disscussion with same error and other games in MS-DOS 6.22 and its fixed by something called loadfix, i never fully understood what it is.. I dunno if it will fix DR-DOS problem too.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 38 of 44, by ruthan

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Ok testing in virtual machines is done, i added new retest in Virtualbox and and Crashin with FAT32 and working with FAT16 columns + Summary sheet:
https://docs.zoho.com/sheet/published.do?rid= … 24552&mode=html
There are interesting VirtualBox and Vmware differences in compatibility but most results are consistent, so remaining errors are:
a) virtualization errors
b) divide by 0 and other variances of Runtime error 6003, where we need to find slowdowner (best would be L1D disabler) working with DR-DOS
c) DR-DOS FAT32 incompatibility - its proven with 11 not working games, its not small number.
d) other DR-DOS incompatibilities

Here is summary:

Summary.png
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Summary.png
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12.8 KiB
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Fair use/fair dealing exception

Now its physical machines testing time + test multitasking, i hope that someone else will do some heavy lifting too, i will at least 2 days without physical Dos machines.

Results: Yes its virtualization test only, but 85% its good results, especially if lots of last era Dos games is working.. but not great, but more we can say after testing of problematic games on physical machines. As i wrote i hope that some in future will be able to fix FAT32 free space bug, it not seems to be hardest thing to fix, if are able to code on needed level.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 39 of 44, by ruthan

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I finally tried to install DR-DOS along side my other OSes.. There are some unclear things about it:

  1. In Rayers tutorial is that DR-DOS files has different names, well its true about autoexec, config, imb* file, but what about command.com if i have MS-DOS 7 on same partition and its command.com it root? Update: This could be bypassed by this config line: SHELL = C:\DRDOS\COMMAND.COM C:\DRDOS /P /E:512
  2. MBR - its possible to side load MBR DR-DOS boot code from other machine, or had to install it on target machine and i need MBR code from excatly that machine? Because above is info that MBR constains some partitions info.. I tried it regardless by dirty way to side load it from other machine to my Win98/MS-DOS 7.1 machine / partition, but im im able to start it through boot.ini - because im getting probably its error message (it could be from NTloader too): Cannot load DOS press key.
  3. I tried to copy whole DR-DOS FAT16 partition to other machine tried it to add to boot.ini by this code:
    C:\DRDOSMBR.bin="Caldera DR-DOS 7.03" // but im gettings classic System32.. missing error in MS-DOS, i see this partition fine its E, i suspect that it could be problem with different letters order for MS-DOS and NTloader, so i tried all lettters from D to H and its the same.
  4. Problem could be that i did sideloading with FAT32 partition, i still dont now if even patched DR-DOS is able to boot from it.
  5. Other problem could be that my DR-DOS is on Extended not primary partition. Does it require to be executed on primary partition?
  6. Ok maybe whole this side loading will not work, its bad idea. So i should have to install DR-DOS on this machine by classical way, but there is problem that its FDISK not working with modern not standart partition tables.. and installer which have problem to recognize even just 1 HDD with 1 small FAT32 will probably not run.. Here is see only to possibilities:
    a) I need some new workaround.
    b) DR-DOS is possible to install along side with MS-DOS, only in very limited conditions like that disk should be only FAT16 partitions or something like that.

Definitely some more research and info is needed.

Update: I tried to convert DR-DOS FAT16 to FAT32 in Vmware, i convert program by Paragon tools which tmake disk unbootable, there is MSDOS5 boot code, i tried to rewrite original DR-DOS MBR back, i after that MBR code is found, but i get exactly same message (Cannot start DOS message). So its again problem that even pached DR-DOS is not able to start from FAT32, but can work with not system FAT32 partition.. So without any new fix, it probably means that side loading is possible only with MS-DOS 6.22 or other DOS on FAT16, im not sure if MS-DOS 7.1 can be installed on FAT16 instead of FAT32. I now game big FAT32 shared by WIndows 98 and DOS 7.1.

Hmm, i got idea.. maybe what i trying is not necessary, maybe i can install ntloader right on DR-DOS partition and start boot process from Gruben sex (Grub) and not care about multiple DOS versions on 1 partition.. This will not of course remove that one more primary partition need - im not 100% sure but if WinXP need to run from primary partition, so ntbootloader probably need it too and even if not, DR-DOS should would also need have not primary partition boot support..

Last edited by ruthan on 2018-10-04, 17:31. Edited 1 time in total.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.