Samir.Habib wrote:

Greetings everyone. I have an issue, which i never faced before. DOS games running from Windows 3.11. DOS for me is something v […]
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Greetings everyone.
I have an issue, which i never faced before. DOS games running from Windows 3.11.
DOS for me is something very far away. So i want to use GUI, because i don't like typing commands.
Games that starts from Windows for example: Duke Nukem(1991) Wolfenstein 3D(1992)
Games that freezes: Prince of Persia(1990) Doom 1&2, Heretic (1994)
So i need to exit Windows, go to DOS and type from there....
Sound driver is setup for DOS and Win, video for Win
Never seen same problem in Windows 9x.

Here is my PC specs

ASUS P/I-P55TP4XE (Intel 430FX chipset)
Intel Pentium-S 133 66 MHz FSB
32 Mb EDORAM PC66 (4 x 8 Mb)
2 Gb IDE HDD
MS-DOS 6.22
Windows for Workgroups 3.11
Matrox Millennium 4mb
Creative Sound Blaster AWE32 CT3990

Windows 9x and Windows 3.x are very different animals. Starting DOS games from within Windows 3.x is a thing that's been 100% suggested not to be done. Some might work but most will definitely not. It's normal (and required in most cases) to start DOS games from DOS by typing their names.

Even with Windows 9x, many DOS games want to be started in pure DOS mode, not from within Windows 9x.

You can use a GUI menu system for launching DOS programs and that's what you should be using anyway.

tayyare wrote:

Samir.Habib wrote:

Greetings everyone. I have an issue, which i never faced before. DOS games running from Windows 3.11. DOS for me is something v […]
Show full quote

Greetings everyone.
I have an issue, which i never faced before. DOS games running from Windows 3.11.
DOS for me is something very far away. So i want to use GUI, because i don't like typing commands.
Games that starts from Windows for example: Duke Nukem(1991) Wolfenstein 3D(1992)
Games that freezes: Prince of Persia(1990) Doom 1&2, Heretic (1994)
So i need to exit Windows, go to DOS and type from there....
Sound driver is setup for DOS and Win, video for Win
Never seen same problem in Windows 9x.

Here is my PC specs

ASUS P/I-P55TP4XE (Intel 430FX chipset)
Intel Pentium-S 133 66 MHz FSB
32 Mb EDORAM PC66 (4 x 8 Mb)
2 Gb IDE HDD
MS-DOS 6.22
Windows for Workgroups 3.11
Matrox Millennium 4mb
Creative Sound Blaster AWE32 CT3990

Windows 9x and Windows 3.x are very different animals. Starting DOS games from within Windows 3.x is a thing that's been 100% suggested not to be done. Some might work but most will definitely not. It's normal (and required in most cases) to start DOS games from DOS by typing their names.

Even with Windows 9x, many DOS games want to be started in pure DOS mode, not from within Windows 9x.

But when i'm using Windows 9x, i just go to games directory, an then just double clicking dos icon i need. The Window giving all drivers as i understand and everything is fine. So i thought, that installing all drivers for DOS 6.22 and Win 3.11 will solve issues.

DosFreak wrote:

You can use a GUI menu systems for launching DOS programs and that's what you should be using anyway.

What exactly are you talking about? Windows 3.11? Because that how i can't use it, as a GUI for lunching my DOS games, without typing commands in DOS. I want to understand, can i start games from 1990-1995, using Windows 3,11 as a DOS shell. Because all this games works fine in Windows 95,98.... even ME starts Wolf3D, DOOM 1/2 & Prince1.

It will not. Trust us, Windows 3.11 was never ever been a gaming platform. It has some stupid little games designed for itself (and even a few big name games like Civilization, Myst and SimCity) but that's all. Before Windows 9x (and even a bit more after 9x released) DOS was the king when it comes to playing games, and Windows 3.11 had never been any part in it.

And Dosfreak is talking about DOS based GUIs (if you can call them that) like Norton Commander and such. I personally don't even suggest that.

And the answer to the question you are repeating again:

in general, NO YOU CAN NOT...

PS: "even ME" is also a Windows 9x version, which is 8 years more modern than windows 3.11.

I tried Norton Commander. But some games are starting, some not.
About Win 9x. If i understand correctly, the all using DOS kernel.
Windows 95 RTM MS-DOS 7.0 FAT 16
Windows 95 OSR 1 MS-DOS 7.0 FAT 16
Windows 95 OSR 2 MS-DOS 7.1 FAT 32
Windows 95 OSR 2.1 MS-DOS 7.1 FAT 32
Windows 95 OSR 2.5 MS-DOS 7.1 FAT 32
Windows 98 RTM MS-DOS 7.1 FAT 32
Windows 98 SE MS-DOS 7.1 FAT 32
Windows ME MS-DOS 8.0 FAT 32

I saw here on VOGONS, that there Windows 3.1 Pif editor. What is this stuff?

The best solution you're going to get is to either have to put the time in to re-learn or learn DOS basics or just install win9x. There are too many reasons why windows 3.11 won't just exit and run any old DOS game. Windows 95 and 98 were far advanced in that avenue and did things like guaranteeing a minimum amount of conventional memory and allowing dos programs to run in protected mode, basic real mode drivers, and so on and so on, like running a virtual machine.

I'd suggest just biting the bullet and reading a few guides or freely available ms-dos basics PDFs available online to learn or get back into the mix. It's not that bad, my nephew was able to CD into folders and launch games when he was 5. It's not as nice but it's what it is. If you're really looking to play DOS games without using Windows, you're going to run into memory (Conventional, Expanded, Extended) sound/device (Config.sys, Autoexec.bat) issues that will take some fixing anyway. With those issues we can easily help you, there are even ready-made autoexecs others have made that will set you up with just about everything you could need.

If a few DOS commands and modifying a few system files sounds like too much, your system is more than capable of running windows 95 or 98 anyway, which will run many (but not all) of your DOS games for you.

Samir.Habib wrote:

I tried Norton Commander. But some games are starting, some not. About Win 9x. If i understand correctly, the all using DOS kern […]
Show full quote

I tried Norton Commander. But some games are starting, some not.
About Win 9x. If i understand correctly, the all using DOS kernel.
Windows 95 RTM MS-DOS 7.0 FAT 16
Windows 95 OSR 1 MS-DOS 7.0 FAT 16
Windows 95 OSR 2 MS-DOS 7.1 FAT 32
Windows 95 OSR 2.1 MS-DOS 7.1 FAT 32
Windows 95 OSR 2.5 MS-DOS 7.1 FAT 32
Windows 98 RTM MS-DOS 7.1 FAT 32
Windows 98 SE MS-DOS 7.1 FAT 32
Windows ME MS-DOS 8.0 FAT 32

For Norton Commander, I already told you above that I'm not suggesting it, or any GUI/file manager for that matter.

For W9x using DOS Kernel, so what?

Windows 3.x is basicly a GUI (well, a bit more than that but that's beyond the point) and W9x are operating systems (even if they boot with DOS first). Those two are different things and the oldest W9x is 3 years more modern than W3.11. It is perfectly normal you cannot do things in one that you can do in the other.

BeginnerGuy wrote:

The best solution you're going to get is to either have to put the time in to re-learn or learn DOS basics or just install win9x. There are too many reasons why windows 3.11 won't just exit and run any old DOS game. Windows 95 and 98 were far advanced in that avenue and did things like guaranteeing a minimum amount of conventional memory and allowing dos programs to run in protected mode, and so on and so on, like running a virtual machine.

I'd suggest just biting the bullet and reading a few guides or freely available ms-dos basics PDFs available online to learn or get back into the mix. It's not that bad, my nephew was able to CD into folders and launch games when he was 5. It's not as nice but it's what it is. If you're really looking to play DOS games without using Windows, you're going to run into memory (Conventional, Expanded, Extended) sound/device (Config.sys, Autoexec.bat) issues that will take some fixing anyway. With those issues we can easily help you, there are even ready-made autoexecs others have made that will set you up with just about everything you could need.

If a few DOS commands and modifying a few system files sounds like too much, your system is more than capable of running windows 95 or 98 anyway, which will run many (but not all) of your DOS games for you.

To be honest, I've already figured out DOS, and typing all commands i need. But this is not about i dreamed, when planned my DOS rig.... About using Win 9x. I already have 3 different builds with 95/98/ME. I just wanted to go more retro(

tayyare wrote:

For Norton Commander, I already told you above that I'm not suggesting it, or any GUI/file manager for that matter. […]
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Samir.Habib wrote:

I tried Norton Commander. But some games are starting, some not. About Win 9x. If i understand correctly, the all using DOS kern […]
Show full quote

I tried Norton Commander. But some games are starting, some not.
About Win 9x. If i understand correctly, the all using DOS kernel.
Windows 95 RTM MS-DOS 7.0 FAT 16
Windows 95 OSR 1 MS-DOS 7.0 FAT 16
Windows 95 OSR 2 MS-DOS 7.1 FAT 32
Windows 95 OSR 2.1 MS-DOS 7.1 FAT 32
Windows 95 OSR 2.5 MS-DOS 7.1 FAT 32
Windows 98 RTM MS-DOS 7.1 FAT 32
Windows 98 SE MS-DOS 7.1 FAT 32
Windows ME MS-DOS 8.0 FAT 32

For Norton Commander, I already told you above that I'm not suggesting it, or any GUI/file manager for that matter.

For W9x using DOS Kernel, so what?

Windows 3.x is basicly a GUI (well, a bit more than that but that's beyond the point) and W9x are operating systems (even if they boot with DOS first). Those two are different things and the oldest W9x is 3 years more modern than W3.11. It is perfectly normal you cannot do things in one that you can do in the other.

All this information is not cheerful at all. So all Windows 1/2/3 GUI's was nothing? Why Microsoft made them?

Because Microsoft was not about being a gui for games.

Samir.Habib wrote:

All this information is not cheerful at all. So all Windows 1/2/3 GUI's was nothing? Why Microsoft made them?

Windows 3.11 was made for graphical software. There exists a huge amount of good programs and tools from chat programs (MIRC still works), browsers, office, business, etc. It brought ease of use for your average person, especially in the workplace. It was not however made to be a full replacement for MS-DOS. Almost nobody ran strictly Windows 3.11 and completely avoided DOS, especially not people playing video games.

Obviously Microsoft wanted the OS to eventually be completely standalone, but that really didn't happen until Windows 95. But you'll see even on windows 95 and 98, some games will still force you to restart into DOS mode to play (NASCAR is one example). I used dos mode very regularly all the way up until I got windows XP myself, lots of people did.

Here are a bunch of menu programs for dos
What Dos Menu programmes exist?

BeginnerGuy lists the real market for the early versions of windows but for a dos gaming PC Win3x is useful for file management or networking with GUI.

Also as for the "3.1 is just a GUI over DOS" talk when you are running DOS games in 3.1 you are running them in a VM if using enhanced mode:
https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/ … 514-00/?p=98745

Run your DOS games in DOS but if you don't care and run them in command prompt or NTVDM then good luck.

Samir.Habib wrote:

All this information is not cheerful at all. So all Windows 1/2/3 GUI's was nothing? Why Microsoft made them?

For office software and other programs that benefited from a graphical interface. However, even back in the day it was way too unstable to run DOS games from (and why would you? DOS was much easier). It never played nice with DOS extenders, and as DOS games often depended on as much of the first 640K (or 512K) of memory being free, often you couldn't even start them from Windows because Windows itself already used too much of that.

There are a few games that were created specifically to run on Windows 3.x, some using the WinG and/or Win32s extensions, but most of those only came about in the period Windows 95 started to replace 3.x.

yawetaG wrote:

There are a few games that were created specifically to run on Windows 3.x, some using the WinG and/or Win32s
extensions, but most of those only came about in the period Windows 95 started to replace 3.x.

Klick&Play. 1994. *Ahem*.. 😉

yawetaG wrote:

Samir.Habib wrote:

All this information is not cheerful at all. So all Windows 1/2/3 GUI's was nothing? Why Microsoft made them?

For office software and other programs that benefited from a graphical interface. However, even back in the day it was way too unstable to run DOS games from (and why would you? DOS was much easier). It never played nice with DOS extenders, and as DOS games often depended on as much of the first 640K (or 512K) of memory being free, often you couldn't even start them from Windows because Windows itself already used too much of that.

There are a few games that were created specifically to run on Windows 3.x, some using the WinG and/or Win32s extensions, but most of those only came about in the period Windows 95 started to replace 3.x.

As I remember, WinG it’s a early Microsoft attempt to create something like DirectX. So when I’m using Win 3.11 just as GUI under my DOS 6.22, and I want enter games directory, then select Doom directory, and finally just double click exe file..... But what happens next? I thought that Windows must drop me to the real DOS mode, but from your words, it’s something like virtual machine?

Sort of. Your computer is already running a virtual machine in some senses when you load up EMM386. A lot of low level functionality is no longer directly accessible at that point and must be used via interfaces provided by the memory manager. What you're doing is attempting to load the game in an environment which is similar in purpose to plain DOS+EMM386 except with Windows still running to the side. You can tweak some of the parameters of the environment by creating an PIF file with PIFEDIT (which can sometimes help with compatibility), but there are some cases where you just can't run Windows at the same time.

WinG, on the other hand, provides higher performance screen access for software in Windows itself. It has nothing to do with running DOS titles simultaneous with Windows.

The DOS mode in windows 3.11 is a x86 virtual machine that is generated by the Windows 3.11 software, so windows is still running in the background.

Many DOS games do not support running in such a mode, because:
a) Some games just dislike running in x86 mode because they cannot access hardware/memory exactly how they want.
b) Some games won't start due to lack in conventional memory.

Windows 3.11 does not have a feature to restart in a compatible DOS mode for these games like WIndows 95 has. So you simply can't run many DOS games from within Windows 3.11

In comparison windows 95 is newer, and had a very specific focus on compatibility. The x86 virtual DOS mode in Windows 95 was improved to allow better compatibility with DOS games, and windows 95 added a special mode that will trigger a reboot of the computer in a specific configuration to handle DOS games that simply won't run in x86 virtual machine mode. In this respect, you simply CAN have a list of DOS games and start them up from within windows 95.

All the talk about kernels and filesystem support and WinG is completely unrelated. Windows 3.11 simply does NOT have the compatibility features you are looking for. To be honest, if you are looking for a more retro experience, then you are going to have to be using more DOS and less Windows as you go further back. That is the way it was in the real old days. You would play games directly from DOS, and you would start windows 3.11 when you wanted to do office work or use the internet.