VOGONS


First post, by AngelRF

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Hi to all, recently I updated my 486, from Windows 3.1 to Windows for Workgroups 3.11, because I wanted network support. My mouse is a Microsoft/IBM compatible from Commodore.
I updated using the normal setup, installing on the same directory of windows 3.1. When I rebooted the mouse was not working.
I tried to replace the drivers using the DOS windows setup, and it sometimes worked. Last time it solved using Logitech driver, weird.
Yesterday was working with the Logitech driver, and this morning it was not (I tried to use Microsoft's and Logitch's drivers, even Genie's one, and replacing those with the setup, none of it worked anymore). I didn't do anything between I turned off yesterday and booting today, I'm tired of this, and I already tried to reinstall windows a couple of times.
Do anyone could help me, or have the same issue?

Reply 1 of 15, by Jo22

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https://remember.the-aero.org/

What kind of PC are you using, by the way?
My Compaq Contura likes vanilla Windows 3.1,
but not WfW 3.11..

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 2 of 15, by jaZz_KCS

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Jo22 wrote on 2020-07-01, 17:23:

My Compaq Contura likes vanilla Windows 3.1,
but not WfW 3.11..

That's interesting. I have a Compaq Contura 400c and it also dislikes (freezes after everything has loaded) WfW3.11. Whereas Windows 3.1 (Compaq edition) does run flawlessly.... I suspect something is up with relation custom memory mapping.

Reply 3 of 15, by AngelRF

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What kind of PC are you using, by the way?
My Compaq Contura likes vanilla Windows 3.1,
but not WfW 3.11..

Its a 486dx-33 33MHz in a unknown motherboard (all cache installed) American Megatrends BIOS of 1992, with 4MB RAM SIMM 30 pin 70ns, a Trident 2MB VGA VLB graphics card, and a multi I/O card, with a 4.3GB IDE hard drive attached, a 3 1/2" floppy drive, serial and parallel ports. Also a NE2000 "compatible" (not really) card.

It has MSDOS 6.22 and Windows for Workgroups 3.11 updated from Windows 3.1.
The serial mouse is attached to the COM1 of the I/O card.

It has been working in w3.1, and it worked some times in wfw3.11, but frequently, the mouse stops working without touching it, and today, I can no longer do anything to make that work. The replacement of the drivers seems to have temporally fixed the issue a couple of times, but the next day, it work fine, and reboot because software installation or so, aaand, no longer works. So annoying.

Reply 4 of 15, by collector

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Wrong forum. As per the pinned topic in this forum: "This forum is for running old Windows games on NEW (supported) versions of Windows" Ask old hardware and driver/configuration questions in Marvin. Marvin, the Paranoid Android

The Sierra Help Pages -- New Sierra Game Installers -- Sierra Game Patches -- New Non-Sierra Game Installers

Reply 5 of 15, by AngelRF

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collector wrote on 2020-07-02, 14:05:

Wrong forum. As per the pinned topic in this forum: "This forum is for running old Windows games on NEW (supported) versions of Windows" Ask old hardware and driver/configuration questions in Marvin. Marvin, the Paranoid Android

And what would be the correct one?

Reply 6 of 15, by skitters

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AngelRF wrote on 2020-07-02, 19:33:
collector wrote on 2020-07-02, 14:05:

Wrong forum. As per the pinned topic in this forum: "This forum is for running old Windows games on NEW (supported) versions of Windows" Ask old hardware and driver/configuration questions in Marvin. Marvin, the Paranoid Android

And what would be the correct one?

Probably "General Old Hardware" ---> General Old Hardware
The "Windows" forum is only for modern hardware like Ryzens and such.
New users are supposed to intuit this telepathically or something.

Reply 7 of 15, by Joseph_Joestar

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Maybe it's time to re-evaluate the forum section names. It really does create a lot of confusion.

Why not create a section called "Windows (legacy)" or something for old, unsupported Windows versions, and rename this forum into "Windows (modern)" etc. Just a thought.

It's also super weird that a forum section titled "DOS" isn't used for discussing DOS running on period correct hardware. I bet the percentage of forum users that run DOS on Ryzens and whatnot is negligible compared to people who use it on their retro rigs.

Using Audigy drivers with a Sound Blaster Live
Installing DOS drivers on an Audigy2 ZS
OPL3 vs. ESFM vs. CQM vs. SBLive
OPTi 82C930 review

Reply 8 of 15, by AngelRF

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2020-07-02, 20:38:

Maybe it's time to re-evaluate the forum section names. It really does create a lot of confusion.

Why not create a section called "Windows (legacy)" or something for old, unsupported Windows versions, and rename this forum into "Windows (modern)" etc. Just a thought.

It's also super weird that a forum section titled "DOS" isn't used for discussing DOS running on period correct hardware. I bet the percentage of forum users that run DOS on Ryzens and whatnot is negligible compared to people who use it on their retro rigs.

Totally agree

Reply 9 of 15, by Jo22

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Hi, let's keep in mind that Vogons was/is meant for helping getting very old games to run on new hardware (originally through VDMSound and later DOSBox). 🙂
The Marvin section was created out of good-naturedness, so to say, to provide a platform between users that both play old games and love to maintain the original hardware also.
It's not the main objective of Vogons to serve the hardware hoarders' needs (so to say).

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 10 of 15, by Joseph_Joestar

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Jo22 wrote on 2020-07-03, 16:15:

Hi, let's keep in mind that Vogons was/is meant for helping getting very old games to run on new hardware (originally through VDMSound and later DOSBox). 🙂

This may have been relevant back when the forum was originally started and people were attempting to run DOS on (then modern) Pentium4s and such. However, I find it hard to believe that the majority of the forum members today are running actual DOS (not DOSBox) on Ryzens and i9s.

Hence my point on the confusing forum names still stands. Also, DOSBox already has its own forum section.

It's not the main objective of Vogons to serve the hardware hoarders' needs (so to say).

The term you're looking for is PC retro gamers. Calling people hardware hoarders implies that they only collect stuff without actually using it for its intended purpose. That's not what I've seen here.

Using Audigy drivers with a Sound Blaster Live
Installing DOS drivers on an Audigy2 ZS
OPL3 vs. ESFM vs. CQM vs. SBLive
OPTi 82C930 review

Reply 11 of 15, by collector

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skitters wrote on 2020-07-02, 20:27:

New users are supposed to intuit this telepathically or something.

Or just read the forum descriptions and stickied posts like the one in this forum entitled "This forum is for running old windows games on NEW (supported) versions of Windows". No intuition required. The reason for keeping it separate is that different solutions are required for dino hardware vs modern systems. Wrappers, emulator/VMs, compatibility fixes or shims are useless for running the games on retro gear/OSs. Memory management, IRQ headaches, driver issues, etc. rarely matter to those that are here because of what these forums were founded on; getting to run Very Old Games On New Systems. The Marvin section was setup as an after thought. A courtesy to the retro gear lovers.

One of the great things about VOGONS is that besides being a good place to ask for help form knowledgeable people, there is a large amount of information and solutions that can be found in existing threads. Asking in the wrong forum places the solution in the wrong forum, too. It misfiles data, making it harder to sort through to find the information you are looking for.

The Sierra Help Pages -- New Sierra Game Installers -- Sierra Game Patches -- New Non-Sierra Game Installers

Reply 12 of 15, by skitters

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collector wrote on 2020-07-03, 18:38:

Or just read the forum descriptions and stickied posts like the one in this forum entitled "This forum is for running old windows games on NEW (supported) versions of Windows".

All I see as a description at the moment is "Getting old Windows games working."

After clicking that link, a new user may or may not notice the sticky thread called "This forum is for running old windows games on NEW (supported) versions of Windows."

But thread titles are not where a new user is going to be looking. They clicked a link on vogons.org to a forum that was clearly labelled "Getting old Windows games working" and the next thing they'll do is look for a link to make a New Post, not read all possible forum topics.

Your current arrangement clearly doesn't work as intended.
I think more than half your (Collector's) posts must be about people posting in the "wrong" forum.

Maybe instead of having the Marvin forums almost halfway down the vogons.org page you can have clear headings under the The Guide section at the top of the forum list:

The Guide

"Getting old DOS games and other software working on modern hardware"
"Getting old DOS games and other software working on vintage hardware"
"Getting old Windows games and other software working on modern hardware"
"Getting old Windows games and other software working on vintage hardware"

... and the 2nd and 4th links would take them to the Marvin links, or possibly directly to the Marvin Software forum since that includes games.

Most new members who come to this website will be wanting help with an old game. So all four possibilities should be at the top of the forum list where they are quick and easy to spot.

It's very important that these four links are right next to each other if you don't want people posting in the wrong place. Make getting to the proper forum as quick and easy as possible.

Try to put yourself in the mindset of the new member who has never seen this forum before, doesn't know its quirks, and just wants some help with their game as quickly as possible. They're not going to want to scroll halfway down the vogons.org page, reading every forum description. Even if they try, they'll probably give up before they reach the Marvin section and just post in the forum with the closest-sounding description to what they want that's near the top of the webpage -- which tends to be either the DOS or the Windows forum where we get all these "wrong forum" posts.

collector wrote on 2020-07-03, 18:38:

The reason for keeping it separate is that different solutions are required for dino hardware vs modern systems.

I understand the reason for keeping separate forums for vintage hardware and that is not the problem.

What I do not understand is why VOGONS has continued to have such a confusing arrangement of forum headings, and then complain when people post in the "wrong" place.

Of course if you enjoy complaining about new members posting in the "wrong" forum then keep doing what you're doing and remember what's often quoted as the definition of insanity.

Last edited by skitters on 2020-07-04, 12:44. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 13 of 15, by AngelRF

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skitters wrote on 2020-07-03, 21:47:
The Guide […]
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The Guide

"Getting old DOS games working on modern hardware"
"Getting old DOS games working on vintage hardware"
"Getting old Windows games working on modern hardware"
"Getting old Windows games working on vintage hardware"

Is VOGONS just for games? I mean, the majority of the posts that I seen is for running games, or hardware for running games...
There are a lot more interesting things than games, just saying, like i. e. retro networking.

Reply 14 of 15, by skitters

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AngelRF wrote on 2020-07-04, 12:03:

Is VOGONS just for games? I mean, the majority of the posts that I seen is for running games, or hardware for running games...

No VOGONS is not just for games.
At present the description for the DOS forum does read "Getting old DOS games working on modern hardware"
But that forum actually covers any older DOS software on modern hardware.

But since most of the "wrong forum" posts are coming from new members wanting to get games running on old hardware, I think there should be links at the top of the list, right alongside the links for old games on modern hardware, rather than having the "games on old hardware" appropriate links so far down the page.

AngelRF wrote on 2020-07-04, 12:03:

There are a lot more interesting things than games, just saying, like i. e. retro networking.

Questions about retro networking would probably go in the Marvin section under "General Old Hardware."
Pretty much anything to do with old hardware would probably go somewhere in the Marvin section, though some could also go in the Deep Thought or Milliways forums.

Reply 15 of 15, by Jo22

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AngelRF wrote on 2020-07-04, 12:03:

There are a lot more interesting things than games, just saying, like i. e. retro networking.

Questions about retro networking would probably go in the Marvin section under "General Old Hardware."
Pretty much anything to do with old hardware would probably go somewhere in the Marvin section, though some could also go in the Deep Thought or Milliways forums.

That is also my understanding.
Vogons has grown into a special place, which we should keep in mind.
Personally, I know of no other forum whose users managed to stay friendly and helpful over such a long period of time.
It's a place in which people with many interests meet and exchange knowledge.
So yes, it's more than about playing games per se.
Nevertheless, this was only possible due to the tolerance of members and forum maintainers.
In other forums, threads would be closed or moved almost instantly once people have a little chat and/or go off-topic for a few postings.
But it's exactly this relaxed/tolerant aditude that separates vogons from other forums such as vcfed.org (no offense!).
More than often, these "happy little accidents" (as painter Bob Ross would say) do lead to interesting solutions and new ideas.
That being said, both netiquette and the forum rules have their purpose, I think. 😉

Edit: In other words, Vogons is like an tropical island on which the spirit of the early days of the web is still virtually alive. It's like an alternately reality, where un-social media never landed on the beach.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//