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Difficult games to get working

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Reply 60 of 77, by Cyberdyne

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Also only use Cutemouse 1.9(.1) those 2.x and 2.1x betas, never used them, and hey even with my modern computer I only use my wheel when surfing the net or using some sort of CAD program.

But Cutemouse has too many issues for me. So Microsoft mouse for me. Sometimes Logitech mouse, because I really like the blue logo, my first computer had that driver, just a nostalgia trip.

I am aroused about any X86 motherboard that has full functional ISA slot. I think i have problem. Not really into that original (Turbo) XT,286,386 and CGA/EGA stuff. So just a DOS nut.

Reply 61 of 77, by Joseph_Joestar

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Cyberdyne wrote on 2021-02-03, 06:16:

But Cutemouse has too many issues for me. So Microsoft mouse for me.

Same for me. I initially used CuteMouse 1.9 because other drivers take up a lot of conventional memory. However, I noticed that some of my games were slowing down whenever rapid mouse movement was employed. This is most evident in Tyrian where quickly dodging enemies and projectiles slows down the entire game, including the music.

Eventually, I found this thread: Moving Mouse dramatically slows down CPU Turns out that using anything other than Microsoft mouse driver version 9 causes slowdowns on my motherboard. Granted, that driver is a memory hog, but at least I can play games normally now.

Using Audigy drivers with a Sound Blaster Live
Installing DOS drivers on an Audigy2 ZS
OPL3 vs. ESFM vs. CQM vs. SBLive
OPTi 82C930 review

Reply 62 of 77, by red_avatar

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clueless1 wrote on 2021-02-02, 23:16:

Interesting, I've been using CuteMouse v1.9 for years and have never had a compatibility issue with it. I guess it depends on the game/app.

Any Delphine (adventure) game has major issues - Future Wars, Stealth Affair, Cruise for a Corpse, ... but I also noticed issues in other games where the mouse moves like it's stuck on horizontal or vertical rails - moving diagonally feels very inaccurate as a result since the mouse moves in steps, left then up, then left then up again, etc.

I can't give more examples off the top of my head though - but I keep a problem text files with games and the description of the problem. I try different versions I find online to see if maybe it's related to the version or maybe a bad crack but I found that quite a few problem games stopped crashing of freezing the moment I moved to Microsoft Mouse driver that comes with DOS 6.22.

Retro game fanatic.
IBM PS1 386SX25 - 4MB
IBM Aptiva 486SX33 - 8MB - 2GB CF - SB16
IBM PC350 P233MMX - 64MB - 32GB SSD - AWE64 - Voodoo2
PIII600 - 320MB - 480GB SSD - SB Live! - GF4 Ti 4200
i5-2500k - 3GB - SB Audigy 2 - HD 4870

Reply 63 of 77, by sf78

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red_avatar wrote on 2021-02-02, 14:07:

There's a replacement DOS extender called DOS32A that may help here. In early DOSBOX days, DOS4GW games were very unreliable and DOS32A used to be a great substitute which used less memory and was far more stable.

I've read about this, but never tried it myself. I'll have to look into it.

I should try Aces of the Pacific - see if I run into any problems.

Yeah, it was quite an interesting experience back then. Oh, I should've obviously mention that I was talking about getting the games to run back in the early 90's. There are a lot of gimmicks these days that pretty much solves all the problems we had back then. I haven't really tried playing any of those games in a long time.

Reply 64 of 77, by red_avatar

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sf78 wrote on 2021-02-03, 13:16:

Yeah, it was quite an interesting experience back then. Oh, I should've obviously mention that I was talking about getting the games to run back in the early 90's. There are a lot of gimmicks these days that pretty much solves all the problems we had back then. I haven't really tried playing any of those games in a long time.

Looking back I'm baffled at how smart I was at the age of 13-14 - I found a boot disk I made from 1994 a few weeks back and it was almost perfectly set up for the maximum of convention al memory. That was probably the result of a LOT of trial & error, looking at the boot disks some games made and puzzling things together. It's funny how pretty much not a single game-made boot disk was actually any good though.

Still, despite this, I mostly ran into problems because IBM had its custom MS DOS versions that were not 100% compatible. I never managed to get certain games working but now that I replaced IBM DOS 5.0 and PC DOS 7.3 (yes that was a thing) with MS DOS 6.22, all these games run with standard boot disk settings.

Retro game fanatic.
IBM PS1 386SX25 - 4MB
IBM Aptiva 486SX33 - 8MB - 2GB CF - SB16
IBM PC350 P233MMX - 64MB - 32GB SSD - AWE64 - Voodoo2
PIII600 - 320MB - 480GB SSD - SB Live! - GF4 Ti 4200
i5-2500k - 3GB - SB Audigy 2 - HD 4870

Reply 65 of 77, by Cyberdyne

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There was DR-DOS 7.03. PC-DOS 7.x were only 7.0 and 7.1(2000)

Oh yes there were PC-DOS 6.3 ... And yes!!! Microsoft MS-DOS 3.3x 5.00a and 6.22 are the only DOSsses you need.

PC-DOS after 5.00 was different, DR-DOS was good, but incompatible, and in reality FreeDOS Kernel/Command is still BETA.

red_avatar wrote on 2021-02-03, 20:05:
sf78 wrote on 2021-02-03, 13:16:

Still, despite this, I mostly ran into problems because IBM had its custom MS DOS versions that were not 100% compatible. I never managed to get certain games working but now that I replaced IBM DOS 5.0 and PC DOS 7.3 (yes that was a thing) with MS DOS 6.22, all these games run with standard boot disk settings.

I am aroused about any X86 motherboard that has full functional ISA slot. I think i have problem. Not really into that original (Turbo) XT,286,386 and CGA/EGA stuff. So just a DOS nut.

Reply 66 of 77, by carlostex

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The Last Express, a game by Jordan Mechner of Prince of Persia fame is notorious difficult for 2 things:

- Has a very fussy SVGA VESA requirement that does not work on a Voodoo 3; (tried every 3DFX TSR there is but no dice)
- Absolutely requires a Sound Blaster 16 or 100% compatible; (No GUS, no Soundscape no any other Sound Blaster type. Absolutely needs SB16)

If anyone manages to get "The Last Express" working on Voodoo 3's i'd be happy to buy you a beer!

Reply 68 of 77, by dr.zeissler

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LastExpress seems to have a mac version. The macversion should be runnable on most old PPC macs.

Retro-Gamer 😀PowerMac 6100-66/Houdini 486/66 - G4 Cube 450/Rage128pro OS9.0.1 - Macintosh LC/Apple IIe Card OS6.0.8 - Acorn A4000 Archimedes - Unisys CWD 486/66 + Aztech Washington

Reply 69 of 77, by red_avatar

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Cyberdyne wrote on 2021-02-04, 10:04:

There was DR-DOS 7.03. PC-DOS 7.x were only 7.0 and 7.1(2000)

Oh yes there were PC-DOS 6.3 ... And yes!!! Microsoft MS-DOS 3.3x 5.00a and 6.22 are the only DOSsses you need.

PC-DOS after 5.00 was different, DR-DOS was good, but incompatible, and in reality FreeDOS Kernel/Command is still BETA.

Yeah I mistyped - it was PC DOS 6.3 I meant.

Last edited by red_avatar on 2021-02-05, 09:28. Edited 1 time in total.

Retro game fanatic.
IBM PS1 386SX25 - 4MB
IBM Aptiva 486SX33 - 8MB - 2GB CF - SB16
IBM PC350 P233MMX - 64MB - 32GB SSD - AWE64 - Voodoo2
PIII600 - 320MB - 480GB SSD - SB Live! - GF4 Ti 4200
i5-2500k - 3GB - SB Audigy 2 - HD 4870

Reply 70 of 77, by red_avatar

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Warlord wrote on 2021-02-05, 07:21:

Besides getting ultima 7 to run, I have some weird stuttering that happens every few steps. Has nothing to do with disk access speed who knows.

That's the game caching the surroundings I believe - on older systems, you move about as fast as the game loads but with faster systems, you move faster so the game has to load faster as well which results in these "stutters".

Retro game fanatic.
IBM PS1 386SX25 - 4MB
IBM Aptiva 486SX33 - 8MB - 2GB CF - SB16
IBM PC350 P233MMX - 64MB - 32GB SSD - AWE64 - Voodoo2
PIII600 - 320MB - 480GB SSD - SB Live! - GF4 Ti 4200
i5-2500k - 3GB - SB Audigy 2 - HD 4870

Reply 71 of 77, by carlostex

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dr.zeissler wrote on 2021-02-05, 07:33:

LastExpress seems to have a mac version. The macversion should be runnable on most old PPC macs.

Dunno anything about Macs, i was mentioning the DOS version.

Reply 72 of 77, by Riikcakirds

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Should be a thread about what mouse drivers break games, probably hundreds of games.
Another example The Simpsons: Bart's House of Weirdness 1991. This game works with Ctmouse 1.9 and newer.
Microsoft mouse ver 9, 10 and 11, which I always thought was the most compatible standard, breaks the game , you just get a black screen.
Also as mentioned, Microsoft mouse v9 and newer switched from using the bios t0 handle the mouse to direct hardware access.
The only version of ctmouse to use direct hardware access is v2.0 alpha 4, takes 9K compared to 25KB ms mouse v9.
Fixes a lot of slowdown problems in games using mouse. Also SOFTMPU site mentions this, it can even slow down midi playback moving mouse. http://bjt42.github.io/softmpu/

Reply 73 of 77, by Jorpho

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dr.zeissler wrote on 2021-02-05, 07:33:

LastExpress seems to have a mac version. The macversion should be runnable on most old PPC macs.

The game was generally very rare for a long time, but for those who just want to play the game, it is now readily available on Steam and GOG and the like.

Reply 74 of 77, by red_avatar

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Riikcakirds wrote on 2021-02-11, 19:10:
Should be a thread about what mouse drivers break games, probably hundreds of games. Another example The Simpsons: Bart's Hous […]
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Should be a thread about what mouse drivers break games, probably hundreds of games.
Another example The Simpsons: Bart's House of Weirdness 1991. This game works with Ctmouse 1.9 and newer.
Microsoft mouse ver 9, 10 and 11, which I always thought was the most compatible standard, breaks the game , you just get a black screen.
Also as mentioned, Microsoft mouse v9 and newer switched from using the bios t0 handle the mouse to direct hardware access.
The only version of ctmouse to use direct hardware access is v2.0 alpha 4, takes 9K compared to 25KB ms mouse v9.
Fixes a lot of slowdown problems in games using mouse. Also SOFTMPU site mentions this, it can even slow down midi playback moving mouse. http://bjt42.github.io/softmpu/

It would be nice to have some kind of global overview of what works on which games. I'm often surprised how vital information is nowhere to be found in a centralized position. I mean, mouse drivers in DOS are pretty important and I noticed that mouse behaviour heavily changes with mouse driver too. CTMouse is a disaster all around I find - in many games the mouse cursor behaves sluggish or not correctly, as if it doesn't process moving diagonally correctly. CPU speed affects this behaviour exponentially - on my slower 486, this behaviour is less noticeable than on my Pentium 75 where the mouse becomes almost unusable. I'll need to check which version of CTMouse I'm using.

Retro game fanatic.
IBM PS1 386SX25 - 4MB
IBM Aptiva 486SX33 - 8MB - 2GB CF - SB16
IBM PC350 P233MMX - 64MB - 32GB SSD - AWE64 - Voodoo2
PIII600 - 320MB - 480GB SSD - SB Live! - GF4 Ti 4200
i5-2500k - 3GB - SB Audigy 2 - HD 4870

Reply 75 of 77, by thepirategamerboy12

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I've used Cutemouse for a while and personally haven't had any issues whatsoever except for the Last Half of Darkness games where it hangs if you try to use the mouse. The Microsoft mouse driver works fine with them, however.

Reply 76 of 77, by red_avatar

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thepirategamerboy12 wrote on 2021-02-12, 11:36:

I've used Cutemouse for a while and personally haven't had any issues whatsoever except for the Last Half of Darkness games where it hangs if you try to use the mouse. The Microsoft mouse driver works fine with them, however.

It all depends on how thorough you are with testen - with any new system I build, I spend about a week testing a good 200-300 games. These are most of the popular games from back then + shareware games and games I personally enjoyed so it's a good mix. If a game doesn't run (well), I try different versions online to see if it may be due to a bad crack or perhaps a later patched version improving bugs etc. This is why I know CTMouse has quite a few issues - a lot of the time I wasn't even aware until I found a way to load the Microsoft driver without dipping below 605k conventional (mainly thanks to my SB16 Vibra which uses TSR drivers).

Retro game fanatic.
IBM PS1 386SX25 - 4MB
IBM Aptiva 486SX33 - 8MB - 2GB CF - SB16
IBM PC350 P233MMX - 64MB - 32GB SSD - AWE64 - Voodoo2
PIII600 - 320MB - 480GB SSD - SB Live! - GF4 Ti 4200
i5-2500k - 3GB - SB Audigy 2 - HD 4870

Reply 77 of 77, by foil_fresh

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red_avatar wrote on 2021-02-02, 10:08:

The only problem I ever had with Beneath A Steel Sky was the fact that the sound was very very quiet. I had this on every system I tried but they all had either a SB16 or a AWE64 so always Creative. I had to lower MIDI music and set wave volume to max and 4x the sound to make the speech loud enough on my 5W speakers back in the day. For the rest, I never had any problems getting it to run but I often saw it mentioned in magazines as a game that people needed help getting to work.

yeah i havent had issues running it but DAMN the sound is so quiet! I know what is happening tho, BASS has it's own memory manager which seems to wipe out whatever volume settings that mixerset sets, reverting all volume levels to default (which is pretty low on all my creative cards i've tested as well as my YMF744). i need to turn up the line-in volume on my main pc which the PC is routed through, which means I get heaps of line noise and interference with the mouse etc.

I have tried running it in W98 to confirm my suspicions, alt-tabbing and then using the windows volume mixer to change the volumes again but it doesn't work properly in w9x at all - seems to crash within a minute of playing. maybe that's the weirdness the older complaints are about.

I haven't tested it on the ESS card I'm running in my 486 atm - that is fairly loud by default so I'll have to give it a try. (edit: tried it, NOPE)

I've looked for patches to no avail, maybe there's a way to run a volume mixer in high memory or something so it doesn't get touched? i don't know enough about memory management to test it tho.