It's probably a hardware problem not a software one. In that case theres not a software solution.

Warlord wrote on 2023-07-10, 05:40:

It's probably a hardware problem not a software one. In that case theres not a software solution.

Why do you think it's a hardware problem? Like I said, I've used this exact same hardware with WFW 3.11 and NT 4.0 and neither of them have ever "lost" the network card. Also, the network card works perfectly in Windows 95 when it actually decides to show up in device manager upon booting, and will continue working perfectly for as long as the computer stays on.

I just did the Add Hardware + Have Disk thing again and got it to show back up for 3 reboots in a row, and it was gone on the 4th reboot, so that only tied the previous record of most number of boots before the NIC vanished.

Try booting bare DOS without any drivers loaded, run the 3c5x9cfg.exe and seeing what resource settings it wants to use. Then shutdown, remove the card and start Windows 95 and open device manager. Check if there are any cards occupying the resources the 3com wants to use (like IRQ). If something is now occupying that IRQ for example, either you have to bump that other card to something else, or you need to cross-reference the list of IRQs that the 3com allows in 3c5x9cfg.exe and find a free one. If there are no free resources that will work for the 3c509, then that's your problem. (a hardware one)

Windows 95 is a bit different than DOS/WFW, being a fully managed environment that is PNP aware. Basically you can be letting Win95 turn everything on and letting PNP do its magic. But especially at that point, it was easy to exhaust the available IRQs necessary to run some devices or having to deal with PNP and non-PNP fighting each other.

3c5x9cfg.exe also allows to disable pnp altogether, that's something else to try.

Thanks the3dfxdude and auron, I'll try 3c5x9cfg.exe if it acts up again, but for now it seems to be fixed; it has booted at least 25 times now and hasn't "lost" the NIC yet. The only thing I did was install my sound card drivers.

It was a new installation of Windows and since I don't use sound much on that PC anyway I hadn't installed the drivers yet. I don't think it's a PnP card because it wasn't detected during the Windows installation even though I checked both boxes where it asked if I have a sound card and a network card. Also, it never showed up in Device Manager at all. For that matter, even after installing the drivers it still isn't in Device Manager, though the sound works fine.

So after the NIC disappeared for the umpteenth time on the 4th reboot like I mentioned in my previous post, I installed the sound card drivers and rebooted. The sound was working and the NIC was still among the missing. Then I did the Add Hardware + Have Disk thing again for the NIC and made it to the 4th reboot without it disappearing, and then the 5th, and 6th, and so on.

I don't know why having a sound card in there without drivers would have caused that particular problem, but it seems that it did.

There should be a sound driver present, otherwise how would a windows application know there is sound? Also, you would know whether or not the sound card is pnp or not. I'm guessing it is not though. What sound card is it? I can totally see that not having a driver present for non-pnp device would mean that Windows could think something is available to use when it is not. Although the last time I remember seeing a conflict with a network card meant a total freeze when used.

the3dfxdude wrote on 2023-07-11, 04:24:

There should be a sound driver present, otherwise how would a windows application know there is sound?

There is now, but like I said, installing the sound driver is low priority for me because I don't use sound for much of anything on that PC. I don't even have speakers for it. To test whether the sound is working or not after installing the sound driver I temporarily run an extension sound cable to the speakers of a nearby PC. The only reason I have a sound card in there at all is because I happened to find one in my junk room years ago and figured it might come in handy having sound in the 486 PC at some point. I don't even know where it came from specifically; I certainly didn't buy it. I just have a lot of old computer stuff that people have given me over the years, including the 486 PC itself (I didn't buy that either).

Also, you would know whether or not the sound card is pnp or not. I'm guessing it is not though.

How would I know that? Like I said, I assume it isn't PnP because Windows seemed to be oblivious to its existence rather than showing it in Device Manager as an unknown device or as a sort-of-known device but with an exclamation point in a yellow circle. Even with the sound working perfectly after installing the drivers, it still isn't listed in Device Manager at all.

What sound card is it? I can totally see that not having a driver present for non-pnp device would mean that Windows could think something is available to use when it is not.

A text file in the folder of the drivers I found that work says it's an Acer Magic s23. The sound chip itself was made by Crystal Semiconductor; I don't know if my particular card was made by Acer or not (I can't find anything written on it to indicate the manufacturer of the card). I want to put in a different sound card that I have (ESS ES1868F chip; Compaq-branded card) because with the Crystal one the system tray speaker/volume icon always defaults to muted when Windows starts (you can simply unmute it every time and it works, but it's annoying) whereas the ESS one doesn't have that issue.

Edit: Just installed the ESS card and it's definitely PnP; before Windows desktop even appeared it popped up the window saying it had detected the new sound card, wanting to install drivers for it, which it did successfully (and it shows up in Device Manager too). Also, it then popped up a Window saying it had found the NIC and wanted to install drivers for that (even though it was already installed and working prior to changing the sound card), which it did successfully. I haven't rebooted enough times yet to see if it's going to stick or not, but it probably will. I think that Crystal sound card was the root of the issue to begin with.

Although the last time I remember seeing a conflict with a network card meant a total freeze when used.

I just think it's strange that the NIC was simply disappearing from Device Manager (yet remaining in Network) after 3 reboots, rather than there being some sort of conflict error message from Windows and it having a yellow circled exclamation point beside it in Device Manager.

MaximRecoil wrote on 2023-07-11, 07:34:

How would I know that? Like I said, I assume it isn't PnP because Windows seemed to be oblivious to its existence rather than sh […]
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the3dfxdude wrote on 2023-07-11, 04:24:

Also, you would know whether or not the sound card is pnp or not. I'm guessing it is not though.

How would I know that? Like I said, I assume it isn't PnP because Windows seemed to be oblivious to its existence rather than showing it in Device Manager as an unknown device or as a sort-of-known device but with an exclamation point in a yellow circle. Even with the sound working perfectly after installing the drivers, it still isn't listed in Device Manager at all.

What sound card is it? I can totally see that not having a driver present for non-pnp device would mean that Windows could think something is available to use when it is not.

A text file in the folder of the drivers I found that work says it's an Acer Magic s23. The sound chip itself was made by Crystal Semiconductor; I don't know if my particular card was made by Acer or not (I can't find anything written on it to indicate the manufacturer of the card). I want to put in a different sound card that I have (ESS ES1868F chip; Compaq-branded card) because with the Crystal one the system tray speaker/volume icon always defaults to muted when Windows starts (you can simply unmute it every time and it works, but it's annoying) whereas the ESS one doesn't have that issue.

Well if the sound card has jumpers and so you set up the card manually, and Win95 can't exactly know what's there and can't control the settings, then it is non-pnp.

So that Acer Magic s23 card is pnp. Another possibility is that if the conflict is not resolved by changing settings, one of the devices gets disabled. Since they both are pnp, they are both aware of each other. So it will be one or the other that disables themself. I'm thinking it was originally the sound card that was winning, and then after you installed the driver for the Acer card, it was the 3com winning. I guess pnp is working as intended...

the3dfxdude wrote on 2023-07-11, 13:02:

Well if the sound card has jumpers and so you set up the card manually, and Win95 can't exactly know what's there and can't control the settings, then it is non-pnp.

So that Acer Magic s23 card is pnp. Another possibility is that if the conflict is not resolved by changing settings, one of the devices gets disabled.

That's not how it's supposed to work when a device gets disabled by Windows, i.e., it's not supposed to simply vanish without a trace. It's supposed to remain in Device Manager, automatically expanded in the list, with an exclamation mark beside it. Also, if the Windows-disabled device happens to be a NIC, it's not supposed to remain in Network exactly the same as if it were recognized and working perfectly. When the NIC would vanish after 3 reboots it looked like this:

Since they both are pnp, they are both aware of each other. So it will be one or the other that disables themself. I'm thinking it was originally the sound card that was winning, and then after you installed the driver for the Acer card, it was the 3com winning.

After I installed the Crystal sound card drivers, neither of them were winning or losing, because they both worked fine and never disappeared. Though, keep in mind that the NIC didn't automatically reappear after installing the sound card drivers. I had to go through the Add Hardware + Have Disk routine again to get it back, and then it didn't vanish again after that.

I guess pnp is working as intended...

In computing, a plug and play (PnP) device or computer bus is one with a specification that facilitates the recognition of a hardware component in a system without the need for physical device configuration or user intervention in resolving resource conflicts.

Since Windows never even showed the slightest hint of recognition of that sound card before installing the drivers (and even after that, despite the sound card working, it still never showed up in Device Manager nor was there any way to uninstall it through Windows short of doing it yourself manually); in fact, it even specifically claimed during Windows installation that I had no sound card; and since resource conflicts were not resolved without user intervention (nor was there even any notification of any kind from Windows about resource conflicts), I'd say that PnP was not working as intended.

On the other hand, with the ESS sound card in there instead of the Crystal, PnP is working as intended, i.e., the ESS sound card was recognized by Windows during startup and it displayed the "Found new hardware" wizard where it allowed me to direct it to the drivers and it installed them successfully. And it shows up in Device Manager like it's supposed to, as does the NIC:

I've had the same issues with Win95 on my Pentium machine. I had to install my cards in a very specific order or else I would just lose my network card. Windows just couldn't detect it anymore. I suspected it to be an issue with the pnp adress allocation.

After MANY hours of trial and error and many sighs and curses, I installed Win98SE. Everything worked right out of the box and I could tinker with different cards and settings again without messing up my Windows installation. I've not bothered with Win95 ever since.

If the problem reoccurs, consider disabling PnP mode on the 3Com NIC and using it in (legacy) ISA mode instead.

Today I swapped out my HDD controller card for a better one and the NIC Vanishing Act returned, and this time it was accompanied by an equally amazing Sound Card Vanishing Act. I got the NIC to stick around by disabling its PnP mode via 3c5x9cfg.exe and then doing the Add Hardware + Have Disk routine and selecting ISA mode, but the sound card (ESS ES1868) still comes and goes as it pleases, like a wayward youth.

These are the resources being used when the sound card decides to show up:

I just booted and the sound card is gone again, so I looked at the resources and IRQ 05, which the sound card uses when it decides to appear, isn't being used by anything. Also, the I/O ranges that the sound card uses when it appears (0220-022F, 0330-0331, and 0388-038B) aren't being used by anything either, and neither are DMA 01 and 03. So where's the conflict? There shouldn't be one, yet there is.

Is this a 486, and does it have a pnp bios? What is the date on the bios? What are the settings in the bios? And the board model?

the3dfxdude wrote on 2023-07-13, 12:47:

Is this a 486, and does it have a pnp bios? What is the date on the bios? What are the settings in the bios? And the board model?

1. Yes.

2. I don't know. The sticker on the BIOS chip says "486DX ISA BIOS (C)1993 AB0251175," but on the BIOS screen it says (C)1992. It's an AMI (American Megatrends Inc.) BIOS.

3. 1992 or 1993, depending on whether you believe the sticker on the EPROM or the BIOS screen.

4. All default except for specifying the HDD (which it autodetects when you tell it to), specifying my two floppy drives, specifying the correct date and time, and changing the default boot order from C:, A: to A:, C:.

5. PX486 P3 with OPTi 495SLC chipset. There's a manual for it online that shows all the BIOS options (there aren't many options) - link.

I just booted again and the sound card is back. It's gone on about every other boot or every third boot or so. And like I said in a previous post, I had gotten it so that both the ESS sound card and the 3Com NIC were showing up on every boot, until I swapped in a different HDD/FDD controller card (I was using a DTC 2278-E VLB card before, now I'm using a QDI Vision QD6500 VLB card in the same slot that the DTC was in).

Back in the day, even 98SE we kept losing the drive share link. We had to manually reconnect when this happens. Only happens when PC is started up but intermittently.

Don't think it is hardware issue.

Cheers,

I don't have the vanishing NIC and/or sound card problem anymore because I booted to DOS, typed format c: and then installed Windows 98. When the installation was finished both the NIC and sound card were already in Device Manager and working perfectly (I didn't have to install drivers myself for either), and they never disappear.

However, there's one new problem: it refuses to restart; it hangs on the shutting down / restarting splash screen indefinitely, and it does it every single time, even during its first reboot that was initiated automatically when the Windows installation was finishing.

On the other hand, it has no problem at all doing a full shutdown, which brings up that same splash screen, but it gets past it quickly and shuts down.

Also, it has no problem restarting from a Windows restart prompt (like you get if you change the resolution or some other system setting), which is a different style of restarting, i.e., instead of showing that splash screen it just goes to a black screen with DOS-style text saying that Windows is restarting. You can also initiate that style of restart yourself by holding the shift key when you go to Start > Shut Down > "Restart the computer?" and click "Yes," and it has no problem restarting that way either.

I've already applied three different Windows 98 shutdown-related patches from Microsoft...

290831usa8.exe
273017usa8.exe
004756us8.exe

... and none of them changed a thing.

MaximRecoil wrote on 2023-07-15, 00:05:

I don't have the vanishing NIC and/or sound card problem anymore because I booted to DOS, typed format c: and then installed Win […]
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I don't have the vanishing NIC and/or sound card problem anymore because I booted to DOS, typed format c: and then installed Windows 98. When the installation was finished both the NIC and sound card were already in Device Manager and working perfectly (I didn't have to install drivers myself for either), and they never disappear.

However, there's one new problem: it refuses to restart; it hangs on the shutting down / restarting splash screen indefinitely, and it does it every single time, even during its first reboot that was initiated automatically when the Windows installation was finishing.

On the other hand, it has no problem at all doing a full shutdown, which brings up that same splash screen, but it gets past it quickly and shuts down.

Also, it has no problem restarting from a Windows restart prompt (like you get if you change the resolution or some other system setting), which is a different style of restarting, i.e., instead of showing that splash screen it just goes to a black screen with DOS-style text saying that Windows is restarting. You can also initiate that style of restart yourself by holding the shift key when you go to Start > Shut Down > "Restart the computer?" and click "Yes," and it has no problem restarting that way either.

I've already applied three different Windows 98 shutdown-related patches from Microsoft...

290831usa8.exe
273017usa8.exe
004756us8.exe

... and none of them changed a thing.

Have you set PnP OS in BIOS?
AUto for IRQ?