PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Discussion about old sound cards, MIDI devices and sound related accessories.

Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby Revolter » 2018-9-03 @ 18:51

ruthan wrote:Reports are actually mix bag

Not at all: Kamerat told us he hadn't tested the WBDMA modes, and dr.zeissler had reported about the games I already listed as not working in DOS even with the WBDMA treatment (the Pinball series works through FM mode, so they are non-problematic in my book) - and I'm not sure what his intention was.

ruthan wrote:for you its working (i dunno with which values)

The value I've used is "111" - the same as on the picture. The list is translated as follows: all games fail in TDMA, "Windows" means WDM Solo-1 drivers, and "WBDMA" means "111".

ruthan wrote:i dont care about Win98, its running fine even on much faster machines

We're talking different stuff here, then :) I don't care about the barebones operating system either - it's all about the total number of games this card can run with proper sound using Windows and DOS environments.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby dr.zeissler » 2018-9-03 @ 19:45

But they sound BAD in adlib, PD1 do not work in adlib, PD2 works in adlib, PF do work with adlib but strange sweeping noise is audible. So only PD2 is relatively fine.
If you have heared PD2 with GUS you don'tz want to play it with adlib and a PCI-Soundcard.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby ruthan » 2018-9-04 @ 13:32

Revolter wrote:The list is translated as follows: all games fail in TDMA, "Windows" means WDM Solo-1 drivers, and "WBDMA" means "111".

Ok what about SB and Adlib settings, which games are working with Adlib only? And what is exactly Windows value - Does it mean that pure DOS wasnt tested, or that is not working?

Win 98 - for me Win98 means - native DirectSound games, games which are not working in pure DOS, if sound card has Windows 98 drivers, they are DirectSound compatible, so they in 99% just working.. And for example SB Audigy (Win98 ones) is working with PCIe-PCI bridge in Windows 98 - on everything on which is possible to install Win98 - it worked on AM3 boards, X99 boards etc.. i didnt tested it personally, but people installed Win98 even on Z170 board..
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby ruthan » 2018-9-08 @ 19:57

I tried magic values:
- i just ran ESSinit script (with value which i though that would be right ones), no ESS driver loaded at all, no autoexec, no config.sys part
- with loaded driver is sound card on my machine detected at IRQ7
- i set all IRQs to 7 to all, legacy and new, midi etc.. and set blaster variable too
- i tried few not working games with original drivers, no luck
- i tried all WBDMA values
- all was tested with SB mode, no Adlib
- because of MB compatibility limitation, im using JEMM (EMS mode)
- music is always fine and was before with loaded driver, problems are with FX

  1. Doom 2 can be run only with DOS32A, otherwise some registry errors, i heard only constant unwanted noisy sound..
  2. Blood - i can now detect SB, i setup, sound samples are working, when i run game i get black screen crash, reset.. I tried DOS32A too, no luck.
  3. Quake 1.0.8 - There is constant noise load sound, but i heard also much more silent in game sounds
  4. Carmageddon - again load constant noisy sound..
  5. Descent 2 - i hear again constant noise sound (clicking), but there some in game sounds, but i would say 50% of them..

Could someone pleas check my *.bat if values are set properly?
ESSINIT.txt
(3.64 KiB) Downloaded 2 times
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby Revolter » 2018-9-08 @ 21:04

dr.zeissler wrote:But they sound BAD in adlib


Yeah, apparently, the sound engine in the Pinball games was made to output sound through anything that could act as a DAC. I woun't be surprised if there was an option to use the PC speaker for outputting digital sound :) But I think the onboard FM is still better than having to use an additional DAC such as a Covox specifically for this task.

dr.zeissler wrote:PD1 do not work in adlib


That is strange - it does on my machine. Have you tried using the standard EMM386.EXE instead of JEMM? If it freezes the computer - try using the following switches (ruthan, you can also try this line in your config.sys to see if it will fix your EMS situation):

DEVICE=C:\DOS\EMM386.EXE RAM I=B000-B7FF

ruthan wrote:Ok what about SB and Adlib settings, which games are working with Adlib only?


No games in the list are Adlib-only - they all work in SBPRO mode. The only titles I know of that can only use Adlib and not SB: Rise of the Dragon and the aforementioned Pinball series.

ruthan wrote:And what is exactly Windows value - Does it mean that pure DOS wasnt tested, or that is not working?


I've tested each game in both the pure DOS 6.22 and Windows Millenium; when it only has "Windows" mentioned - it means that it does not output sound (or has severe problems with it) in pure DOS, but it does in Windows (and only with in-built WDM drivers, because the VxD drivers have the same compatibility as the DOS driver's TDMA mode). When it has both - then it works in both DOS and Windows. Some games only work properly in DOS, because they cannot run in Windows at all.

ruthan wrote:i just ran ESSinit script (with value which i though that would be right ones), no ESS driver loaded at all, no autoexec, no config.sys part


That's how it is supposed to work: no drivers are required, since they are essentially just for switching the PCI registers of the card - which is what this batch file's purpose :) The main difference is that now you have direct control over the settings - something the standard "drivers" do not allow.

ruthan wrote:Could someone pleas check my *.bat if values are set properly?


I can see that you have changed some values "just in case", right? I'd recommend only changing those you are certain about, like the target SB IRQ and DMA emulation type, and leaving others default. Try the attached one (it only switches the IRQ to 7 instead of the default 5, and is enabling the "111" WBDMA).

P.S. I actually gave the Pentium 3 computer that was used to create this compatibility list (so I can no longer update it) to a good friend. But I did replace it with a Pentium 133 (430VX), and I can tell you guys that ESS Solo-1 is working there like a charm (in plain old TDMA mode, no less!), not a single troublesome game encountered. If I was told that this PC has an ISA card inside, and not a PCI one - I wouldn't notice the difference without actually inspecting the hardware list :) So it really comes down to the chipset.
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ESSINIT.TXT
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby ruthan » 2018-9-08 @ 23:12

Revolter wrote: That is strange - it does on my machine. Have you tried using the standard EMM386.EXE instead of JEMM? If it freezes the computer - try using the following switches (ruthan, you can also try this line in your config.sys to see if it will fix your EMS situation):
DEVICE=C:\DOS\EMM386.EXE RAM I=B000-B7FF

This line, can give it only more conventional memory, its cant fix such problems, BTW i can break some text modes, B200-B7FF is safer, but for sake of my mind, i tried it, its the same. My guest is that change frame parameter would have better change of success (but everytime where is had problem with frame or i parameters, ems started and reported problem.. it should not freeze like that), if problem is EMS autodetection. But i did important discovery, moment ago, i try ATI Mach 64 PCI as primary video card and EMS without any parameters is working fine. So there some problem with Geforce 6600 AGP with combination with this board and EMS, card is fine for sure, i used it for years and removed it from other computer + I tried before multiple AGP and PCIe cards before os its not only Nvidias problems. That 4core-Vsta MB is picky i tried Trident PCI videocard and S3 Virge.. and Trident freeze at boot screen and S3 Virge no picture at all.. Note im not entire sure that these 2 are ok, i tried tem in X58 there they are not working too, but there is HP BIOS, i have try them somewhere else, my cousin tested them and claims that there are working, but he is a bit autistic(asperger):) Update: I tested S3 with i865, its working fine, so its incompatibility.

ruthan wrote:And what is exactly Windows value - Does it mean that pure DOS wasnt tested, or that is not working?

Revolter wrote:I've tested each game in both the pure DOS 6.22 and Windows Millenium; when it only has "Windows" mentioned - it means that it does not output sound (or has severe problems with it) in pure DOS, but it does in Windows (and only with in-built WDM drivers, because the VxD drivers have the same compatibility as the DOS driver's TDMA mode). When it has both - then it works in both DOS and Windows. Some games only work properly in DOS, because they cannot run in Windows at all.

Ok good to know, when looking on you list: Carmageddon, Doom 2, Descent 2 and Quake too, only Blood shouldnt.

ruthan wrote:Could someone pleas check my *.bat if values are set properly?


Revolter wrote: I can see that you have changed some values "just in case", right? I'd recommend only changing those you are certain about, like the target SB IRQ and DMA emulation type, and leaving others default. Try the attached one (it only switches the IRQ to 7 instead of the default 5, and is enabling the "111" WBDMA).

Not intentionally, but true is that i edited file on modern Windows, because didnt know that Dos rendering of some strange characters would be so nice and there could be some typo.. I just wanted to change IRQ for 7, DMA for 1 and set WBDMA.

Revolter wrote: I actually gave the Pentium 3 computer that was used to create this compatibility list (so I can no longer update it) to a good friend. But I did replace it with a Pentium 133 (430VX), and I can tell you guys that ESS Solo-1 is working there like a charm (in plain old TDMA mode, no less!), not a single troublesome game encountered. If I was told that this PC has an ISA card inside, and not a PCI one - I wouldn't notice the difference without actually inspecting the hardware list :) So it really comes down to the chipset.

Such results is expected, try hard ones - Turrican II, Ishar trilogy (no Adlib pleas) and Darklands, that would be interesting.

Thanks, i will test me file.
Last edited by ruthan on 2018-9-09 @ 11:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby dr.zeissler » 2018-9-09 @ 06:42

ExtremePinball is beside Turrican2 a good test.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby ruthan » 2018-9-09 @ 10:10

Ok i tested new ESSinit:
QEMU + JEMM - same results
EMS with ATI MACH 64 - Doom 2 - no fx, noisy sound, Blood - is running no FX, Descent II is the same, Quake I + Carmageddon - still same noise.

So still nothing.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby Revolter » 2018-9-09 @ 13:52

ruthan wrote:try hard ones - Turrican II, Ishar trilogy (no Adlib pleas) and Darklands, that would be interesting.

dr.zeissler wrote:ExtremePinball is beside Turrican2 a good test.


And... they all worked, except Turrican 2. Pure DOS, standard driver and SB mode. Ishar 3's sound init is apparently speed-sensitive, so I had to slow down this beast of a processor in order for it to work in this game :)

It turns out this Pentium 133 rig can be a good platform for verifying whether or not the game can play ball with ESS Solo-1 at all, so you are welcome to ask me to check it for you if in doubt.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby ruthan » 2018-9-09 @ 19:48

Revolter wrote:And... they all worked, except Turrican 2. Pure DOS, standard driver and SB mode. Ishar 3's sound init is apparently speed-sensitive, so I had to slow down this beast of a processor in order for it to work in this game :)

It turns out this Pentium 133 rig can be a good platform for verifying whether or not the game can play ball with ESS Solo-1 at all, so you are welcome to ask me to check it for you if in doubt.

Results is nice for owners or older machines, i didnt expect good results with Ishars with PCI soundcard.. What is error with Turrican II?, from my experience its working only in realmode (himem only).

For us with modern chipsets is still winner Yamaha or Aureals.. i would recommend ESS Solo for reasons listed above in this thread. Yamaha is less hassle, but limited to EMS.Aureal is more hassle bad FM, but could be tuned through wavetable header for games with General midi support. Rayer has some interesting news about Yamaha tunning, but its secret for now:)
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby dr.zeissler » 2018-9-10 @ 06:35

I will do a projekt with this Mobo in the future. Don't know when but I will do it: M6VBE-A https://www.flickr.com/photos/94839221@ ... 872568392/
Afaik should it be possible to use a Tualatin with a S370 Adapter with this chipset. The Onbord Solo1 should work fine beside the known problems with some dos-soundengines.

btw: the manual lists WSS-compatibility, so the problematic games like Turrican should work too.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby MKT_Gundam » 2018-9-13 @ 02:20

Is the VIA KT600 chipset compatible with pci like the EnsoniqSb Live and Aurel vortex?
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby gdjacobs » 2018-9-13 @ 03:17

Yes. The newer VIA chipsets generally don't have problems with PCI sound like the VT82C686 series.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby ruthan » 2018-9-14 @ 13:28

So compatibility info which could be handy again from mighty one - Phil, its ESS1868 rewiew, but he show that ESS support something what is called ADPCM and even ISA Yamaha 718 doesnt and there is sound example for Yamaha, i have exactly same problem with newer Yamaha in this game and there are probably more games which need this.. I would be interesting to discovered if Aureals and ESS Solo-1, SB !Live etc, have or havent this feature.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby gdjacobs » 2018-9-15 @ 01:31

ADPCM is used fairly rarely. Two titles which do use it are Duke Nukem 2 and Major Stryker.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby MKT_Gundam » 2018-9-16 @ 18:48

About the LGA 775 chipsets compatible with win 98 (mine is 865G) will work with pci soundcard in dos?
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby ruthan » 2018-9-16 @ 18:58

MKT_Gundam wrote:About the LGA 775 chipsets compatible with win 98 (mine is 865G) will work with pci soundcard in dos?

Yes. you use at least SB !Live, SB Audigy - Windows for which exist Win98 drivers, there are lots of models, Aureal V1/V2 and Yamaha 7x4. My recommendation is Aureal or Yamahas.

For info is in this thread, Yamaha threads.

There is compatibility matrix with X58, i865 would be same or better, not worse, with Yamaha is the same:
https://docs.zoho.com/sheet/published.d ... 2a9209e034

My X58 + sound thread with zillion other info:
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=61044
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby MKT_Gundam » 2018-9-16 @ 22:10

ruthan wrote:
MKT_Gundam wrote:About the LGA 775 chipsets compatible with win 98 (mine is 865G) will work with pci soundcard in dos?

Yes. you use at least SB !Live, SB Audigy - Windows for which exist Win98 drivers, there are lots of models, Aureal V1/V2 and Yamaha 7x4. My recommendation is Aureal or Yamahas.

For info is in this thread, Yamaha threads.

There is compatibility matrix with X58, i865 would be same or better, not worse, with Yamaha is the same:
https://docs.zoho.com/sheet/published.d ... 2a9209e034

My X58 + sound thread with zillion other info:
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=61044

I planning make a high end win98se ( later dos and win games) and Xp for Dos box and early XP on same machine.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby ruthan » 2018-9-17 @ 00:05

MKT_Gundam wrote: I planning make a high end win98se ( later dos and win games) and Xp for Dos box and early XP on same machine.

Because someone was able to make Win98SE on Z170 chipset working - highend could be misleading:) But i know what you mean, i865 is fine, dos compatibility mainly depends on sound cards and Win98 if you to use Dos mode within depends on used videocard (Nvidia has ugly bug which is blocking to use fullscreen on geforce 4-7 afaik at least with some drivers) and XP 32bit would be running on everything.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby ruthan » 2018-9-23 @ 00:52

Other bad news for AurealV1 in DOS, beside that its not working with slowdowners propers, it has also problem with Rayer MTRR (blicking cursor after execution, FASTVID is working fine).. graphics boost utility at least with X58 board, but guess is that is will fail on other MBs too, even i not load driver, MTRR is working fine.
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