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Reply 61 of 486, by LSS10999

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Looks like some new activities...

For PCI sound cards, with existing TSRs and workarounds, these are probably everything. Without some serious hacks (in means such as option ROMs and SMI hooks), I don't think it's possible to attain legacy audio capabilities in more recent chipsets.

For post-ICH5 motherboards with ISA slots, it's a good news that LPC-to-ISA solutions can be configured to be useful for legacy audio and such, but unfortunately they're very rare. Aside from RUBY-9719VG2AR, it seems EL620-C (without PCIe slot, though) also had a revision that used Fintek's LPC-to-ISA bridge which might be helpful, though most of the information online (including DFI-ITOX official page) was regarding the revision that used IT8888G with the same slave-only limitations. I haven't been able to find any desktop motherboard with such bridges used other than those, and it seems the chip's being used more in specialized embedded solutions.

And as for PCIe-to-PCI bridges... apparently DFI has made an industrial board HD620-H81 which features two ISA slots powered by ITE IT8888G connected to IT8893E (a PCIe-to-PCI bridge), perhaps the first of the kind to bridge ISA to PCIe, by means of PCIe-to-PCI then PCI-to-ISA.

DFI did not explicitly state "no DMA support" for ISA slots anywhere in the documentations, but looks like RayeR had confirmed it's not DMA capable. While the board is not going to be too helpful, the thing I'm curious about that board, however... is this comment before:

nukeykt wrote:

PCIe allows only ports >= "card base address",unlike PCI.

If PCIe forbids accesses to resources below the base address, then how could IT8893E work this around to enable IT8888G's functionality? Otherwise, the ISA ports provided by IT8888G would be completely useless even for industrial ISA devices that only use I/O addresses, as they're always below IT8888G's base address. I couldn't find anything helpful from datasheets alone, not to mention IT8893E, and its IT8892E sibling (which is used to power that board's four PCI slots), have no publicly available datasheets, only IT8888G has.

Reply 62 of 486, by Kamerat

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Seems like "modern" motherboards handles legacy ports over PCI and PCIe with something called subtractive decode. Some newer industrial motherboards have settings in the BIOS to enable subtractive decode over PCIe, like the Intel H81 based Jetway G03-NFS5Z-F.

DOS Sound Blaster compatibility: PCI sound cards vs. PCI chipsets
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Reply 63 of 486, by RayeR

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Kamerat wrote:

Seems like "modern" motherboards handles legacy ports over PCI and PCIe with something called subtractive decode. Some newer industrial motherboards have settings in the BIOS to enable subtractive decode over PCIe, like the Intel H81 based Jetway G03-NFS5Z-F.

I think it's not a problem to enable subtractiove decode by writing to PCI config space register of specific PCI2PCI bridge (there you can also set IO address range that is passed from primary PCI bus to secondary PCI bus). You can do it with my SMB tool or other utility for PCI editing under DOS...

Gigabyte GA-P67-DS3-B3, Core i7-2600K @4,5GHz, 8GB DDR3, 128GB SSD, GTX970(GF7900GT), SB Audigy + YMF724F + DreamBlaster combo + LPC2ISA

Reply 64 of 486, by Kamerat

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RayeR wrote:

I think it's not a problem to enable subtractiove decode by writing to PCI config space register of specific PCI2PCI bridge (there you can also set IO address range that is passed from primary PCI bus to secondary PCI bus). You can do it with my SMB tool or other utility for PCI editing under DOS...

I'll guess you have to change some configurations on the PCH too. I wonder if you can change one of the PCIe slots to subtractive decode if the PCH/southbrige already got native PCI support? Thanks for the tip on your SMB tool BTW, could be a nice replacement PCI.EXE and PCISET utilities I'm using in using in this experiment.

DOS Sound Blaster compatibility: PCI sound cards vs. PCI chipsets
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Reply 65 of 486, by ruthan

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I will post it here too.. I have tested 150+ games with Yamaha 744 on X58 board, i found ~25 not working games (described in Not working games for now section of first thread post) with Yamaha SB emulation, could someone pleas retest some them with Yamaha 7xx or Aureal Vortex too and tell if has same problems? Pleas add info about used MB.
X58/i865/V880 - Yamaha7x4/AurealV1/2 pure Dos7.1- compatibility list/research/ultim. drivers configs, WIP- gurus needed

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 66 of 486, by ruthan

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Ok, i retested all problematic games with Core 2 - i865(ICH5) board + Geforce 6 + Yamaha 744, combination where ~60-70% of problematic games are working with SB !Live (same Core2+G6 machine).. and compatibility level is exactly the same as with X58 (ICH10), ~95+% of problems are exactly the same as with X58.

So conclusions are:

  • Problem are probably caused by Yamaha driver or its DSDMA,exed mode. If someone could test Yamahas in SB-link mode or DDMA mode it would be interesting to compare results, it problem is DSDMA or basic driver..
  • Its simply make no sense to use Core 2 + Yamaha combination, its slower that X58 for any other application and setmul l1d is too slow on Core 2 Duo, could be used only with limited set of games, on X58 it works much better.
    Main Core 2 machines advantage is still in much bigger sound cards choice possibilities..

List of problematic games and other details:
Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed

Next big think would be check X58+ Aureal V. compatibility.. If someone could confirm that some problematic games on my list are working with Aureal at least with older MB, it would be nice.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 67 of 486, by ruthan

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Tested one ESS-SOLO 1 or i865 or something newer?

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 68 of 486, by Srandista

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I will be checking ESS Solo-1 on my ASRock 4CoreDual-SATA2 (with VIA VT8237S southbridge) today. Do you want to test something specific?

Socket 775 - ASRock 4CoreDual-VSTA, Pentium E6500K, 4GB RAM, Radeon 9800XT, ESS Solo-1, Win 98/XP
Socket A - Chaintech CT-7AIA, AMD Athlon XP 2400+, 1GB RAM, Radeon 9600XT, ESS ES1869F, Win 98

Reply 69 of 486, by Kamerat

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Srandista wrote:

I will be checking ESS Solo-1 on my ASRock 4CoreDual-SATA2 (with VIA VT8237S southbridge) today. Do you want to test something specific?

It's working nicely in TDMA mode on my Asus P5VD2-VM SE with the same southbridge.

DOS Sound Blaster compatibility: PCI sound cards vs. PCI chipsets
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Reply 70 of 486, by dr.zeissler

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ruthan wrote:

Tested one ESS-SOLO 1 or i865 or something newer?

On i865 upwards like i915 I got FM working in Dos but SFX freezes the machine (e.g. Wolf3D)

Retro-Gamer 😀 ...on different machines

Reply 71 of 486, by LSS10999

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ruthan wrote:

Tested one ESS-SOLO 1 or i865 or something newer?

dr.zeissler wrote:

On i865 upwards like i915 I got FM working in Dos but SFX freezes the machine (e.g. Wolf3D)

I used to test this card on nForce series (like nForce 4, 720D), and later on with an Intel P31 based board. From what I know, nForce chipsets behave similarly as i915 and onwards.

Only FM is fully usable, SFX is not. Some games work fine (without SFX), others freeze when SFX is being played. I believe this is due to the way the game was programmed to access the Sound Blaster.

Reply 72 of 486, by ruthan

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Was expected if is AurealV2 working, but Aureal V1 is working on X58, i started testing, so i can only confirm that some games which arent working on Yamaha on same machine are working..

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 73 of 486, by Revolter

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ruthan wrote:

Was expected if is AurealV2 working, but Aureal V1 is working on X58, i started testing, so i can only confirm that some games which arent working on Yamaha on same machine are working..

Some of the quirky games that love to give most PCI cards and non-DDMA mobos a hard time:

Bioforge, Crusader: No Remorse/No Regret, Earthworm Jim 2, Jazz Jackrabbit, One Must Fall 2097, Quarantine 1/2, Rayman, Screamer 2, Ultima VIII: Pagan.

Could you confirm if any of them work with the "Vortices" (in pure DOS or Win9X)?

Thanks!

Celeron 800, 512MB, GeForce2 MX, ES1938S/DB S2, Windows ME/DOS 6.22

Reply 74 of 486, by ruthan

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Revolter wrote:

[
Bioforge, Crusader: No Remorse/No Regret, Earthworm Jim 2, Jazz Jackrabbit, One Must Fall 2097, Quarantine 1/2, Rayman, Screamer 2, Ultima VIII: Pagan.

Some them were already in my compatibility list:
Re: X58 PC+ Yamaha744 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list and research, work in progress- gurus needed just search for AurealV1 string for future.. but. //Update: Moved to online sheet (link bellow), there is Aureal V1 collumn.
Bioforge -working, Crusader - no remorse(full) + no regret(demo) - both are working, Jazz - working, Ultima VIII working, Rayman - demo,working, EarthWorm Jim - i tested first volume - its working, EarthWorm 2 Demo is working too, Quarantine 2 - working (i have to copy different 3 hmdi* .386 files from Dungeon Master 2) with original no sound, Screamer I+II + Rally are working, with but there using different IRQ and DMA, that they should see bellow..

I just find you that Scream rally/ Screamer I+II are using dirent IRQ a DMA that it should be and other games are using.. its very strange, details here: Re: X58 (ICH10) PC+ Yamaha7x4 sound card-pure Dos7.1- compatibility list+research+ultimate branch configs, WIP- gurus needed
Screamer I+II are the same, too working with this strange values.. Note S2 setup could be set only without loaded SC driver, other i get freeze at its loading screens, its doing lots of comp testing during start..
I dont have enough experience with other PCI card on older chipset if sound settings with them are seamless.. or only solution for not need to fiddle are ISA cards..

One must fall - i havent it yet, if there is demo and you will prepare testing package, i will test it.

Conclusion: With enough fiddling i made every game which i could test working.. I didnt yet finished testing of Quaritine I, it would be tough one..

And i dont even started fiddling with different driver version, DMA ports and Tx Blaster variable and DSP versions, so there is space to go and time to burn - but once some add this to some guide, other could enjoy the knowledge..

Last edited by ruthan on 2018-08-06, 16:37. Edited 2 times in total.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 75 of 486, by ruthan

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I wonder is someone able to load Vortex V1/V2 driver to upper memory?

Im using V1 with ZanQuance recommended driver 1.06 is quite a whopper - 20,3 KB, but even i have bigger upper memory free block is still living in conventional memory.. I tried, QEMM and JEMM too.
Last oficial driver 1.167 is even bigger - 24 KB?

BTW why older driver should be better?

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 76 of 486, by ruthan

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Ok, i managed to get Quarantine 1 working too: (Realmode (himem only)/Protected mode(no himem, no ems, if you have too much ram use burnmem.sys in my Drivers package)): Ok with SB IRQ5+Sound blaster (NO PRO) in setup a Slowdos /d5 - its working fine. I used 1.167 driver.

So we can call it flawless victory for Aureal!

I have task for you test any game from Ishar trilogy or Turican II or Darklands in Sound blaster (or PRO) mode with PCI sound card.. and report if its working..

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 77 of 486, by ruthan

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Ok i migrated our compability matrix to online sheet - im using Zoho, because i was at least in past more feature rich than Google docs, and yeah also more buggy.
https://docs.zoho.com/sheet/published.do?rid= … 04bf92a9209e034
Working games on X58+Yamaha are listed first, tests with Core 2 Yamaha / Core + SB Live - i added some new games test to make matrix complete / X58+Vortex test are starting on line ~140..

Last edited by ruthan on 2018-08-06, 20:07. Edited 1 time in total.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 78 of 486, by ruthan

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I tested cheap Cmedia 8738 PCI (there are even PCI-E ones) with i865, i first time made it to do some sound in pure Dos. FM (music) is working in Adlib and Sound blaster fine in Blood and Doom II in EMS and Realmode - sound quality is nice, FX (sounds) arent (DMA problem) so i needs some older chipset, some fix from some experts like Rayer..

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 79 of 486, by ruthan

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I tested Yamaha 744 on GA-Z97P-D3 with loaded DSDMA driver, driver can be loaded, but when i try to test FX i get freeze, also YMHIRQ has some problem - message found and error on next line.. Its no go, or we need some programming..

Tested Vortex 1 with same board - Drivers was loaded, but when i tried to use dos, i got freeze when some *.exe was executed.. I tried all memory mods IRQs etc, it was the same.. I didnt changed a thing in bios. Its random, but i once got freeze later, so i was able to test Blood setup and FX and Music worked and also once got in Doom 2 with sound in menu. Expected plain working not working results, this is strange.. technically its not working..

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Last edited by ruthan on 2018-08-09, 13:31. Edited 3 times in total.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.