PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Discussion about old sound cards, MIDI devices and sound related accessories.

Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby Revolter » 2019-1-19 @ 22:42

dr.zeissler wrote:I used your stuff. Perhaps I forgot something? My solo is at 220/5/1. perhaps I should make a clean boot without anything and use pciset as a batch? I'll test that...


The "PCISET" strings I sent were also set for 220/5/1, so it should have worked. I only use the batch files without the driver, so I've no idea if they conflict in any way. Sure, worth a try!

dr.zeissler wrote:FM means adlib?


Yeah, I meant the Adlib setup option.

dr.zeissler wrote:Silverball - works on my machine, but needs additional testing...


Well, it starts and generates sounds on my machine as well, but the music seems to be halved in rate, and there are also visual skips and freezes that shouldn't be there. If it works just as indented on your machine - that difference would be interesting to elaborate!

dr.zeissler wrote:We should always write in what config we are testing


Ok, here's mine:

Autoexec.bat
Code: Select all
PROMPT $e[1;34;40m$e[0;60;"D";13p$e[0;59;"0";13p$e[0;63;"C";13p$e[0;61;"2";13p$e[0;62;"3";13p$e[0;64;"6";13p$e[0;65;"7";13p$p$g    // this is for hotkeys
PATH C:\DOS;C:\UTL\BATCH
SET TEMP=C:\DOS
@ECHO OFF
CALL NVCLOCK.BAT    // this is for underclocking the GPU to 66/66 Mhz
CALL TDMA.BAT    // that's the Solo-1 part
CLS
VER
DIR /O


Config.sys
Code: Select all
DEVICE=C:\DOS\SETVER.EXE
DEVICE=C:\DOS\HIMEM.SYS /TESTMEM:OFF /Q
DEVICE=C:\DOS\EMM386.EXE 16384 RAM    // I REM out this line for games that require it
DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOS\ANSI.SYS    // also for hotkeys
INSTALLHIGH=C:\DRV\MSMOUSE\MOUSE.EXE    // it's from MS Intellipoint package
DOS=HIGH,UMB
LASTDRIVE=G
FILES=40
BUFFERS=40


Tdma.bat
Code: Select all
@ECHO OFF
C:\DRV\ESS\PCISET\PCISET.EXE 1969 125D 41 10111111 00010000 > NUL
C:\DRV\ESS\PCISET\PCISET.EXE 1969 125D 40 11111111 01111011 > NUL
C:\DRV\ESS\PCISET\PCISET.EXE 1969 125D 52 00000001 00000000 > NUL
C:\DRV\ESS\PCISET\PCISET.EXE 1969 125D 51 01100111 00000001 > NUL
C:\DRV\ESS\PCISET\PCISET.EXE 1969 125D 50 00011100 00000000 > NUL
C:\DRV\ESS\PCISET\PCISET.EXE 1969 125D 61 11111111 00000000 > NUL
C:\DRV\ESS\PCISET\PCISET.EXE 1969 125D 60 11110001 00000000 > NUL
SET BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 T4
C:\DRV\ESS\ESSVOL.EXE /v:5 /l:0 /w:12 /m:0 /c:0 /s:12 /a:14 /p:0


Wbdma.bat
Code: Select all
@ECHO OFF
C:\DRV\ESS\PCISET\PCISET.EXE 1969 125D 41 10111111 00010000 > NUL
C:\DRV\ESS\PCISET\PCISET.EXE 1969 125D 40 11111111 01111011 > NUL
C:\DRV\ESS\PCISET\PCISET.EXE 1969 125D 52 00000001 00000000 > NUL
C:\DRV\ESS\PCISET\PCISET.EXE 1969 125D 51 01100111 00000111 > NUL
C:\DRV\ESS\PCISET\PCISET.EXE 1969 125D 50 00011100 00000000 > NUL
C:\DRV\ESS\PCISET\PCISET.EXE 1969 125D 61 11111111 00000000 > NUL
C:\DRV\ESS\PCISET\PCISET.EXE 1969 125D 60 11110001 00000000 > NUL
SET BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 T4
C:\DRV\ESS\ESSVOL.EXE /v:5 /l:0 /w:12 /m:0 /c:0 /s:12 /a:14 /p:0


TDMA.BAT is loaded automatically from AUTOEXEC.BAT, and then I switch between two modes by typing in the batchfile name - no reboot required.

Also, dr.zeissler. As a way of solving the DOS compatibility for your SFF PCs - check ebay for "QDI SynactiX 1": a guy from France sells this mobo cheap - it has similar specs and dimensions to yours, but it has a PC/PCI connector (!!!). I have one of these, but thanks to the AGP slot in a wrong place I cannot swap it with my DFI CS32-TC just yet %)
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby Kamerat » 2019-1-22 @ 07:26

I have an Ectiva (Creative) EV1935 MachOne (first known as the OPTi 82C935 MachOne) based card on the way. Not much special about it, but it's one of the rarer PCI sound cards out there. DMA emualtion is done by DDMA so I except that the chipset compatibility should be like the YMF7xx PCI in DDMA mode and it's the only PCI sound chip I know of that supports WSS.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby appiah4 » 2019-1-22 @ 11:26

ALS4000 also supports it I think?
1989:A500|1M|ACA500+|C1084S
1992:HIPPO-VL+|U5SX-33|8M|GD5428|CT2290|S2
1995:P5I430VX|P133|32M|T64+/MX2|V1|CT3980/32M
1998:S1573S|K6-2/400|64M|RagePro|V2/SLI|CT4500/32M
2001:GA-6OXT|PIII-1200|512M|GF3Ti200|MX300
2004:K8VD|3700+|2G|X1950P|SB0350
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby dr.zeissler » 2019-1-22 @ 12:05

What games (or soundengines of games) do make use of WSS?
I am currently thinking about a PCI soundcard for a 3dfx Gaming PC (V5-AGP). The focus is Win9x-Gaming and some dos-compatibilty. Perhaps an OLP3LPT addon possible.
For what PCI-soundcard should I go?
SBLive? Vortex1, Vortex2, YMH74x, SOlO1...ALS4000 or something different?
CPU: PII 133-333 MOBO: SNI-D981 RAM: 512- FDD: Dualfloppy 3,5"HD/5,25"HD - 3,5"HD - 5,25"DD ISA-Catweasel HDD: 2x40GB - DVD
ISA(3): Audician32-S2Dreamblaster - GusACE PCI(3): Monster3D- Intel NW AGP(1): 3dfx V3-3000
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby appiah4 » 2019-1-22 @ 12:25

dr.zeissler wrote:What games (or soundengines of games) do make use of WSS?
I am currently thinking about a PCI soundcard for a 3dfx Gaming PC (V5-AGP). The focus is Win9x-Gaming and some dos-compatibilty. Perhaps an OLP3LPT addon possible.
For what PCI-soundcard should I go?
SBLive? Vortex1, Vortex2, YMH74x, SOlO1...ALS4000 or something different?


The answer depends on what motherboard you are using, really. Also, I'm not 100% positive ALS4000 is WSS compatible, I just checked out a spec sheet and it was not mentioned..
1989:A500|1M|ACA500+|C1084S
1992:HIPPO-VL+|U5SX-33|8M|GD5428|CT2290|S2
1995:P5I430VX|P133|32M|T64+/MX2|V1|CT3980/32M
1998:S1573S|K6-2/400|64M|RagePro|V2/SLI|CT4500/32M
2001:GA-6OXT|PIII-1200|512M|GF3Ti200|MX300
2004:K8VD|3700+|2G|X1950P|SB0350
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby Kamerat » 2019-1-22 @ 19:05

appiah4 wrote:ALS4000 also supports it I think?

As you mentioned there's no indication in the technical documentation there's support for WSS and I have never seen any indication of it when using the ALS4000 myself.

dr.zeissler wrote:What games (or soundengines of games) do make use of WSS?

Descent, Warcraft II, Turrican II and Grand Theft Auto are some games that support it, but I don't think the list is very long.

dr.zeissler wrote:I am currently thinking about a PCI soundcard for a 3dfx Gaming PC (V5-AGP). The focus is Win9x-Gaming and some dos-compatibilty. Perhaps an OLP3LPT addon possible.
For what PCI-soundcard should I go?
SBLive? Vortex1, Vortex2, YMH74x, SOlO1...ALS4000 or something different?

If your main focus are Windows gaming I think you should go for the Vortex 2 if you only want one sound card.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby ruthan » 2019-1-23 @ 23:08

Kamerat wrote:I have an Ectiva (Creative) EV1935 MachOne (first known as the OPTi 82C935 MachOne) based card on the way. Not much special about it, but it's one of the rarer PCI sound cards out there. DMA emualtion is done by DDMA so I except that the chipset compatibility should be like the YMF7xx PCI in DDMA mode and it's the only PCI sound chip I know of that supports WSS.

So there are still some pontencial hidden gems after all. This if you can try it with X58. I also wonder if there is XP / Linux or Windows 7 64 bit (longshot) drivers for it.
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby Kamerat » 2019-1-24 @ 07:20

ruthan wrote:So there are still some pontencial hidden gems after all. This if you can try it with X58. I also wonder if there is XP / Linux or Windows 7 64 bit (longshot) drivers for it.

Well, DOS Sound Blaster support should be limited to VIA VT82C686B, SiS 962 and Intel PIIX4E as the most recent southbridges. I might try some newer chipsets, but DDMA is really chipset dependent.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby appiah4 » 2019-1-24 @ 07:47

Kamerat wrote:If your main focus are Windows gaming I think you should go for the Vortex 2 if you only want one sound card.


That was my go-to card as well, but CS4624 and CS4630 have replaced it as my single card solutions.. What's your opinion on these?
1989:A500|1M|ACA500+|C1084S
1992:HIPPO-VL+|U5SX-33|8M|GD5428|CT2290|S2
1995:P5I430VX|P133|32M|T64+/MX2|V1|CT3980/32M
1998:S1573S|K6-2/400|64M|RagePro|V2/SLI|CT4500/32M
2001:GA-6OXT|PIII-1200|512M|GF3Ti200|MX300
2004:K8VD|3700+|2G|X1950P|SB0350
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby ruthan » 2019-2-24 @ 01:20

I was small change, but i have tested Z170 Mb with PCI slots:
https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA ... -rev-10#sp

And no Dos sound at all (FM+FX), i tested Vortex V1 and ALS4000 (official and unofficial drivers), i not 100% sure about Yamaha 744 because its working only with EMS.. and i managed to boot only with NO EMS with some error, JEMMEX and JEMMS.. and when i was able to boot i got freeze at DSDMA... its about disk controller onboard has not IDE mode and i tried external sataII pci promise controller, because i cant find Asmedia Sata - which has IDE bios.

But i can confirm that MB is able to run Windows 98 - i dint do much testing, but its booting and geforce 6 is working fine.. and i can play games.
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby MKT_Gundam » 2019-2-25 @ 21:17

I have a vortex 1 card. I just checked at vogons drivers library and dont see any driver for pure dos.
Using on my P4 and the sound for win98 games looks better than Ensoniq PCI.
Also i find a VIA C3 800mhz and i would test with my ASUS TU4VX for setmul settings.
No sure if lowering the cpu clock will cause problem with Vortex1 or Ensoniq pci.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby ruthan » 2019-2-26 @ 12:39

Im on phone but check my x58 thread there is dos drivers and config package, vortex is included.
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby MKT_Gundam » 2019-2-26 @ 15:41

ruthan wrote:Im on phone but check my x58 thread there is dos drivers and config package, vortex is included.

I did quick check on your thread, the vortex 1 dont like the setmul. You used modern hardware, maybe with p3 era mobo would work?
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby ruthan » 2019-2-26 @ 16:04

MKT_Gundam wrote:I did quick check on your thread, the vortex 1 dont like the setmul. You used modern hardware, maybe with p3 era mobo would work?

I doubt it, i dissused it with Setmul author and he said that problem is how driver and setmul is designer.. setmul set something used by driver to too slow speed, and with slower cpu, it would be probably even worse..
But Setmul is not only one slowdowner, im quite happy with slowdos and there are others..
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby MKT_Gundam » 2019-2-27 @ 02:15

ruthan wrote:
MKT_Gundam wrote:I did quick check on your thread, the vortex 1 dont like the setmul. You used modern hardware, maybe with p3 era mobo would work?

I doubt it, i dissused it with Setmul author and he said that problem is how driver and setmul is designer.. setmul set something used by driver to too slow speed, and with slower cpu, it would be probably even worse..
But Setmul is not only one slowdowner, im quite happy with slowdos and there are others..

Undercloking by traditional ways, fsb and multiplier jumper?
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby ruthan » 2019-2-27 @ 17:59

I really dont know on which basis all these utilities are working, i guest that they simply adding some delays between all actions or something like that. HW undeclocking is usually limited, so you can reach speed which are not slow enough on some faster machines, original Pentium you can clock to 50, 60, 75 Mhz, but PIII i dont think that you can get PIII to 100, 200 MHz.. because of FSB limit or multiplier limits.
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby Revolter » 2019-2-27 @ 20:02

ruthan wrote:HW undeclocking is usually limited, so you can reach speed which are not slow enough on some faster machines, original Pentium you can clock to 50, 60, 75 Mhz, but PIII i dont think that you can get PIII to 100, 200 MHz.. because of FSB limit or multiplier limits.


1. Original P54 Pentium can only go as low as 75 Mhz, and only on motherboards that allow 50 Mhz FSB speed;
2. There are hardware CPU cycle-skipping features available in ACPI-enabled machines (all computers starting from 1998): "Throttle Duty Cycles" - as it is called in some older motherboard BIOS'es, - and "Thermal Throttling", - in context of Pentium 4 and later CPU's. The first one skips certain amount of active CPU cycles when computer is in Doze Mode to save power. The second one does the same when CPU reaches certain temperature to save it from overheating. These features can be triggered on purpose by user software, making multipliers completely irrelevant: the actual working frequency in Mhz will stay the same, but the CPU will behave like a 386, 486 etc.;
3. Pentium III's below ~800 Mhz can be underclocked using the method above - in combination with Cache disabling - even down to XT-era speeds perfectly smooth and stutter-free (which is not possible with Mo'Slo and other delay-inducing pure software methods). It's only really fast Pentium III's that will still be too fast when underclocked like that - as they cannot be made slow enough by switching FSB to 66 Mhz, and SpeedStep or ODCM technologies weren't implemented yet.

For Pentium Pro/Pentium II/Pentium III you can use the Throttle utility to achieve this. For Pentium 4 and later processors, another method is available.

I just hate it when such a great technology - super-relevant for the retro-scene - remains largely ignored and buried under these common misconceptions. I guess pure multiplier- and FSB- underclocking methods and "software for slowdown is bad" are just much easier things to understand and to start applying right away :dead:
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby ruthan » 2019-2-27 @ 20:28

Yeah i forgot on cache disabling - its main SetMul feature for fast machines, but is nothing like official 386/ 486 mode, it just change cpu to big slimmer that some old game run right but, as i wrote its not working well with Vortex sound cards and other thing, so other methods need to be used.
I never tried underclock CPUs to slowest possible speed, especially old ones, because i always did right opposite.
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby Revolter » 2019-2-27 @ 20:42

ruthan wrote:nothing like official 386/ 486 mode


I do not believe there was ever such thing :) Even in Phil's K6-III+ Time Machine videos you can notice how the timer in Test Drive III still runs like crazy. You can only make one yourself, by figuring out the right combination of a CPU and a level of slowdown. A @133 Mhz CPU just seems to be a nice match to run without the caches, that's all. But you can just make your Core 2 Duo or something effectively run at a speed *equivalent* to 133 Mhz via the method above, and THEN disable it's caches. For instance, to run Wing Commander at the correct "386" speed:

1) On my Celeron 800 with 128KB L2 cache it is:
800 Mhz on stock 100 FSB speed, 25% skipped CPU cycles via Throttle.exe, and Level 1 Cache disabled.

2) On another processor of mine - Pentium 3 600EB with 256 L2 cache - it is:
300 Mhz on 66 FSB speed, Level 1 Cache disabled.

3) And on my real Pentium 133 non-MMX:
75 Mhz on 50 FSB speed, Level 1 and 2 Caches disabled.

In 1) and 2) the cache sizes and FSB speeds are different, and in 3) the CPU architecture is completely different, but the result is literally the same in all three cases, and it even looks more accurate than in Phil's videos (because on SS7/K6-III+ you cannot go slower).

ruthan wrote:its not working well with Vortex sound cards and other thing, so other methods need to be used.

It will always be like that, because Vortex uses processor power for EMULATING Sound Blaster compatibility, and its driver does all the work (Creative's PCI cards and Yamaha's DSDMA are doing the same). That's why it is so good at it, and that's also why it is not the best solution.
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Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Postby ruthan » 2019-2-28 @ 22:12

Revolter wrote:It will always be like that, because Vortex uses processor power for EMULATING Sound Blaster compatibility, and its driver does all the work (Creative's PCI cards and Yamaha's DSDMA are doing the same). That's why it is so good at it, and that's also why it is not the best solution.

I not sure if DSDMA really need too much CPU power, because its working with SetMul fine, i have bad memory but i thing that Creative cards are the same. On paper specs Vortex 2 has something like minimum Pentium 100, to probably Vortex 1 has something similar.. if it really need such for Dos, it explains things.
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
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