VOGONS


Reply 2860 of 3127, by terryfi

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Can someone please also clarify purpose of eeprom U30 AT93C66SC and if it needs some firmware be flashed on it? Is there strict timing requirements for this chip, what are other options , is this a good replacement? https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/mi … 66B-E-SN/319140

Last edited by terryfi on 2022-04-25, 22:13. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 2861 of 3127, by IcySon55

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
Synoptic wrote on 2022-04-25, 21:49:

Here's the list of material I used to assemble my Arguses : https://www.micronick.com/argus/argus_synoptic_bom.pdf

I put together my BOM for Mouser using the partlist.txt and bom.txt from the zip provided in the OP? The partlist.txt appears to match the PDF you provided. I know the parts are somewhat flexible, so I was hoping for a more in-depth verification that what I've selected will be "perfectly fine".

Not that you have to be the one to help on this; I wouldn't want to waste your time when there are boards to put together~

Reply 2862 of 3127, by IcySon55

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
terryfi wrote on 2022-04-25, 22:06:

Can someone please also clarify purpose of eeprom U30 AT93C66SC and if it needs some firmware be flashed on it? Is there strict timing requirements for this chip, what are other options besides CAT and AM?

I believe it stores some configuration data that you set up before installing the drivers using the tools provided. Open up the ARGUS_final_doc.zip from the OP and read the install.txt for more info.

Reply 2863 of 3127, by MJay99

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
IcySon55 wrote on 2022-04-25, 22:12:

I believe it stores some configuration data that you set up before installing the drivers using the tools provided. Open up the ARGUS_final_doc.zip from the OP and read the install.txt for more info.

Indeed. Find the pnpmap.exe in that package and flash the gravnocd.rom onto it. Before that, the card won't show up in unisound / iwinit. Afterwards make sure to do a cold boot (reset or power off/on). The card should show up then.

Reply 2864 of 3127, by terryfi

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
Synoptic wrote on 2022-04-25, 21:58:
The SDK is there : http://dk.toastednet.org/GUS/SOURCE%20CODE/IWSDK20.ZIP and a bunch of useful stuff in there too : http://dk.t […]
Show full quote
gerwin wrote on 2016-03-01, 22:18:
This folder in the SDK mentions ROM making: IWSDK20.ZIP\960214.SRC\TOOLS\ROMMAKER Some Snippets: "now combine .FFF and .DAT int […]
Show full quote
shock__ wrote:

How they arranged the data ... no idea. The "newfff.txt" from the SDK might be of help there. Personally I haven't checked into that yet - just confirmed the IW78C21M1 can be substituted with a 29F800

This folder in the SDK mentions ROM making:
IWSDK20.ZIP\960214.SRC\TOOLS\ROMMAKER
Some Snippets:
"now combine .FFF and .DAT into ROMx.BIN files"
FFF=SBOS waves Patch Information
DAT=SBOS waves Sample Data
prepare rom header: strncpy(rh.iwave, "INTRWAVE", 😎;

The SDK is there : http://dk.toastednet.org/GUS/SOURCE%20CODE/IWSDK20.ZIP
and a bunch of useful stuff in there too : http://dk.toastednet.org/GUS/SOURCE%20CODE/
Maybe someone could make a ROM out of the .DAT files from the patch files ?

I can't find any .DAT in SDK zip file, can you elaborate the location please?

Reply 2866 of 3127, by Synoptic

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
terryfi wrote on 2022-04-25, 22:20:
Synoptic wrote on 2022-04-25, 21:58:
The SDK is there : http://dk.toastednet.org/GUS/SOURCE%20CODE/IWSDK20.ZIP and a bunch of useful stuff in there too : http://dk.t […]
Show full quote
gerwin wrote on 2016-03-01, 22:18:
This folder in the SDK mentions ROM making: IWSDK20.ZIP\960214.SRC\TOOLS\ROMMAKER Some Snippets: "now combine .FFF and .DAT int […]
Show full quote

This folder in the SDK mentions ROM making:
IWSDK20.ZIP\960214.SRC\TOOLS\ROMMAKER
Some Snippets:
"now combine .FFF and .DAT into ROMx.BIN files"
FFF=SBOS waves Patch Information
DAT=SBOS waves Sample Data
prepare rom header: strncpy(rh.iwave, "INTRWAVE", 😎;

The SDK is there : http://dk.toastednet.org/GUS/SOURCE%20CODE/IWSDK20.ZIP
and a bunch of useful stuff in there too : http://dk.toastednet.org/GUS/SOURCE%20CODE/
Maybe someone could make a ROM out of the .DAT files from the patch files ?

I can't find any .DAT in SDK zip file, can you elaborate the location please?

My mistake, The dat files I am referring to are the .PAT files. Sorry for the confusion

Reply 2867 of 3127, by terryfi

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
Synoptic wrote on 2022-04-25, 22:24:
terryfi wrote on 2022-04-25, 22:20:
Synoptic wrote on 2022-04-25, 21:58:

The SDK is there : http://dk.toastednet.org/GUS/SOURCE%20CODE/IWSDK20.ZIP
and a bunch of useful stuff in there too : http://dk.toastednet.org/GUS/SOURCE%20CODE/
Maybe someone could make a ROM out of the .DAT files from the patch files ?

I can't find any .DAT in SDK zip file, can you elaborate the location please?

My mistake, The dat files I am referring to are the .PAT files. Sorry for the confusion

I only found some .PAT files in this location http://dk.toastednet.org/GUS/MIDI%20PATCHES/ are you referring to these?

Reply 2868 of 3127, by Synoptic

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
terryfi wrote on 2022-04-25, 22:33:
Synoptic wrote on 2022-04-25, 22:24:
terryfi wrote on 2022-04-25, 22:20:

I can't find any .DAT in SDK zip file, can you elaborate the location please?

My mistake, The dat files I am referring to are the .PAT files. Sorry for the confusion

I only found some .PAT files in this location http://dk.toastednet.org/GUS/MIDI%20PATCHES/ are you referring to these?

No. The Pat files from the installation disks
I am just throwing an idea there and have absolutely no clue if my idea is doable.

Reply 2869 of 3127, by Thermalwrong

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
terryfi wrote on 2022-04-25, 22:06:

Can someone please also clarify purpose of eeprom U30 AT93C66SC and if it needs some firmware be flashed on it? Is there strict timing requirements for this chip, what are other options , is this a good replacement? https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/mi … 66B-E-SN/319140

This chip is the ISA PNP EEPROM, it's used to identify the card to the computer's PnP BIOS and drivers.

The 93LC66B is what I have on my philips card and it should be a 93xx66B or 66C, not 66A with currently available parts.
The memory configuration of the A chip is wrong (I nearly used this, but it shouldn't work). The 93xx66C lets you select between 8-bit and 16-bit mode using the ORG pin, which isn't routed on this card afaik, but it seems to default to 16-bit so it's fine.
You can get any of the 93xx66B/C chips like the 93AA66x, or 93LC66x or 93C66x. The AA / LC / C defines the operating voltage, but they all support operating at up to 5.5v and on this card, they'll be running at 5 volts.
As long as they're SOIC-8 or SOP-8 they should be fine, the one you've linked should work I think.
The PnP ROM can be programmed by running the PNPMAP.EXE software. Check the "install.txt" file in the Argus_Final_Docs for details on the procedure.
That's what I did with my Philips card to make it work with the GuS PnP software.

trying to design my GUSt card is attempting to design a moving target, at least I've ordered up some Interwave chips now, but the ROM's footprint needs changing 😀

For people concerned about the ROM - In my opinion it's not worth putting much time into - it can be left off if the card doesn't have a problem without it, which 640k!enough has said it can do.
If you've got a GuS-PnP card with 4MB or more of memory, you can load up the much higher quality GSFULL4M.DAT once the drivers are installed:

Attachments

Reply 2870 of 3127, by 640K!enough

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Synoptic wrote on 2022-04-25, 21:58:

Maybe someone could make a ROM out of the .PAT files from the GUS installation files ?

Can it be done? Yes, but it still doesn't solve the problem. None of those are in the public domain, and in absolutely no way can you fit a complete bank within 1 MiB.

Reply 2871 of 3127, by Synoptic

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
640K!enough wrote on 2022-04-26, 06:31:
Synoptic wrote on 2022-04-25, 21:58:

Maybe someone could make a ROM out of the .PAT files from the GUS installation files ?

Can it be done? Yes, but it still doesn't solve the problem. None of those are in the public domain, and in absolutely no way can you fit a complete bank within 1 MiB.

Yeah, I am just trying to figure out something.
How did the GUS emulators managed to workaround the rom?

Reply 2872 of 3127, by digistorm

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

As far as I understand it, the classic GUS does not use a ROM and you are required to supply the needed .PAT files in the ULTRASND\MIDI directory yourself.

Reply 2873 of 3127, by Stevogamer

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
Thermalwrong wrote on 2022-04-25, 23:54:
This chip is the ISA PNP EEPROM, it's used to identify the card to the computer's PnP BIOS and drivers. […]
Show full quote
terryfi wrote on 2022-04-25, 22:06:

Can someone please also clarify purpose of eeprom U30 AT93C66SC and if it needs some firmware be flashed on it? Is there strict timing requirements for this chip, what are other options , is this a good replacement? https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/mi … 66B-E-SN/319140

This chip is the ISA PNP EEPROM, it's used to identify the card to the computer's PnP BIOS and drivers.

The 93LC66B is what I have on my philips card and it should be a 93xx66B or 66C, not 66A with currently available parts.
The memory configuration of the A chip is wrong (I nearly used this, but it shouldn't work). The 93xx66C lets you select between 8-bit and 16-bit mode using the ORG pin, which isn't routed on this card afaik, but it seems to default to 16-bit so it's fine.
You can get any of the 93xx66B/C chips like the 93AA66x, or 93LC66x or 93C66x. The AA / LC / C defines the operating voltage, but they all support operating at up to 5.5v and on this card, they'll be running at 5 volts.
As long as they're SOIC-8 or SOP-8 they should be fine, the one you've linked should work I think.
The PnP ROM can be programmed by running the PNPMAP.EXE software. Check the "install.txt" file in the Argus_Final_Docs for details on the procedure.
That's what I did with my Philips card to make it work with the GuS PnP software.

trying to design my GUSt card is attempting to design a moving target, at least I've ordered up some Interwave chips now, but the ROM's footprint needs changing 😀

For people concerned about the ROM - In my opinion it's not worth putting much time into - it can be left off if the card doesn't have a problem without it, which 640k!enough has said it can do.
If you've got a GuS-PnP card with 4MB or more of memory, you can load up the much higher quality GSFULL4M.DAT once the drivers are installed:

So the main takeaway I guess is that if you are installing SIMMs, you wouldn't be using the ROM anyways. 😀

Reply 2874 of 3127, by terryfi

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
Stevogamer wrote on 2022-04-26, 14:50:
Thermalwrong wrote on 2022-04-25, 23:54:
This chip is the ISA PNP EEPROM, it's used to identify the card to the computer's PnP BIOS and drivers. […]
Show full quote
terryfi wrote on 2022-04-25, 22:06:

Can someone please also clarify purpose of eeprom U30 AT93C66SC and if it needs some firmware be flashed on it? Is there strict timing requirements for this chip, what are other options , is this a good replacement? https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/mi … 66B-E-SN/319140

This chip is the ISA PNP EEPROM, it's used to identify the card to the computer's PnP BIOS and drivers.

The 93LC66B is what I have on my philips card and it should be a 93xx66B or 66C, not 66A with currently available parts.
The memory configuration of the A chip is wrong (I nearly used this, but it shouldn't work). The 93xx66C lets you select between 8-bit and 16-bit mode using the ORG pin, which isn't routed on this card afaik, but it seems to default to 16-bit so it's fine.
You can get any of the 93xx66B/C chips like the 93AA66x, or 93LC66x or 93C66x. The AA / LC / C defines the operating voltage, but they all support operating at up to 5.5v and on this card, they'll be running at 5 volts.
As long as they're SOIC-8 or SOP-8 they should be fine, the one you've linked should work I think.
The PnP ROM can be programmed by running the PNPMAP.EXE software. Check the "install.txt" file in the Argus_Final_Docs for details on the procedure.
That's what I did with my Philips card to make it work with the GuS PnP software.

trying to design my GUSt card is attempting to design a moving target, at least I've ordered up some Interwave chips now, but the ROM's footprint needs changing 😀

For people concerned about the ROM - In my opinion it's not worth putting much time into - it can be left off if the card doesn't have a problem without it, which 640k!enough has said it can do.
If you've got a GuS-PnP card with 4MB or more of memory, you can load up the much higher quality GSFULL4M.DAT once the drivers are installed:

So the main takeaway I guess is that if you are installing SIMMs, you wouldn't be using the ROM anyways. 😀

One of key issues this project did not gain much traction was the copyrighted ROM. I wonder why __shock or other main contributors didn't consider making the ROM optional.

Reply 2875 of 3127, by IcySon55

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
terryfi wrote on 2022-04-26, 15:18:

One of key issues this project did not gain much traction was the copyrighted ROM. I wonder why __shock or other main contributors didn't consider making the ROM optional.

It is optional isn't it? Based on earlier discussion above, the ROM chip is not required to use the card. As long as you have the SIMM slot and enough ram, you can load up the full sample set (for MIDI) and also the improved sample-based music playback. Unless I misread something?

Reply 2876 of 3127, by Synoptic

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
IcySon55 wrote on 2022-04-26, 16:14:
terryfi wrote on 2022-04-26, 15:18:

One of key issues this project did not gain much traction was the copyrighted ROM. I wonder why __shock or other main contributors didn't consider making the ROM optional.

It is optional isn't it? Based on earlier discussion above, the ROM chip is not required to use the card. As long as you have the SIMM slot and enough ram, you can load up the full sample set (for MIDI) and also the improved sample-based music playback. Unless I misread something?

Yeah, in fact, my opinion is you are better off not using the ROM patches because you can't update them and all instruments fits in this 1Mb ROM. You ar ebetter off using the .PAT files and most of the cool games come with their own set of .PAT. You can then use any amount of RAM (up to 16MB) to store exceptionally good sound samples of the only intruments you need.

that ROM is overrated IMHO.

Reply 2877 of 3127, by 640K!enough

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
terryfi wrote on 2022-04-26, 15:18:

One of key issues this project did not gain much traction was the copyrighted ROM. I wonder why __shock or other main contributors didn't consider making the ROM optional.

Say it with me again for the last time: the instrument ROM is optional. The ROM is optional. THE ROM IS OPTIONAL!!!

In every case where you would really want to use an UltraSound-like card, the instrument ROM is entirely unnecessary. Traditional GF1-based GUS compatibility does not need the instrument ROM, is unaware of its existence, and is utterly incapable of using it under any circumstances. Tracker and demo playback never make use of the instrument ROM, even if/when they have direct InterWave support.

The ROM was only somewhat desirable in the time when, if someone had a sound card at all, they would only have one, and would want it to be the "complete package". It allowed lazy developers to offer MIDI playback via InterWave without much added effort or having to worry about amount of RAM installed, loading instruments to RAM, etc. At a time when most here have multiple sound devices, you would likely want to use just about any other decent MIDI device, rather than relying on playback from the 1 MiB InterWave instrument ROM.

There is some software that only knows how to use the instruments out of the ROM for MIDI playback. Those will not work, but for those titles, you would generally use another device for superior MIDI playback, anyhow. DOS-based InterWave software that is aware of RAM-bank loading (there isn't much) will load and use that, so, again, no ROM required. The ROM is relied upon in certain configurations for InterWave-based Ad Lib FM emulation, but that is so universally despised (for good reason), that you won't realistically want to use it. Once you get to Windows 9x, with the exception of software written specifically for GUS/InterWave RAM-based features, you generally want to use a different card and/or MIDI device, especially when we start talking about DirectX.

The Plug and Play EEPROM is a completely separate issue, and for the sake of your sanity, is required. This can be programmed on-card, once it is fully assembled, as documented in shock__'s archive, linked in the first post. Because anyone with a sufficient understanding of ISA PNP can re-create this data from scratch (and there are tools to do so), copyright issues are not really a factor here.

Last edited by 640K!enough on 2022-04-26, 18:37. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 2878 of 3127, by 640K!enough

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Synoptic wrote on 2022-04-26, 17:49:

You ar ebetter off using the .PAT files and most of the cool games come with their own set of .PAT. You can then use any amount of RAM (up to 16MB) to store exceptionally good sound samples of the only intruments you need.

That isn't quite correct. The use of .PAT files generally means that you are in (legacy) GUS-compatibility mode, where the maximum RAM supported is still 1 MiB. As discussed above, there are titles that won't work without the ROM, but then a quality MIDI module will generally put the InterWave to shame (more of a problem of lazy software support, which is sometimes terrible, rather than the chip or the instrument bank).

Titles that use tracker music (where GUS really shines), don't need the ROM or .PAT files.

Reply 2879 of 3127, by terryfi

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
IcySon55 wrote on 2022-04-26, 16:14:
terryfi wrote on 2022-04-26, 15:18:

One of key issues this project did not gain much traction was the copyrighted ROM. I wonder why __shock or other main contributors didn't consider making the ROM optional.

It is optional isn't it? Based on earlier discussion above, the ROM chip is not required to use the card. As long as you have the SIMM slot and enough ram, you can load up the full sample set (for MIDI) and also the improved sample-based music playback. Unless I misread something?

Maybe I didn't elaborate enough. I was baffled why guys didn't bypass the ROM licensing issue by make it optional part of the product; manufacture and sell card fully assembled cards without ROM.