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Reply 1920 of 3172, by 640K!enough

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Even then, if everyone has to buy a bracket with the type 15 slot already punched, it will end up being about as expensive as a full run of brackets. The only advantage of that approach is that it doesn't depend on a certain minimum number of people committing to buy one (or several).

In your case, if you can move the game/MIDI port slightly, you can start with one of the pre-punched brackets available almost anywhere (Digi-Key or Mouser, among others). That likely won't be under your 2€ limit, however. Then there is the matter of having to drill and file the remaining holes. I tried that for ARGUS, before looking at the exact measurements, and found out the hard way, after aligning and drilling all of the other holes, that the type 15 cut-out was too high on the bracket for our needs.

I am still looking for a more appropriate manufacturer that we might be able to use for a cheaper, smaller run. My free time has been occupied by other ARGUS-related work over the past few days, but I will get back to the bracket business soon.

Reply 1921 of 3172, by xjas

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Tiido wrote:

The problem is the gameport connector, you'll not be making one with just a drill.

You use two different-sized drill bits, a small metal file, a bench vise, and some carefully marked off masking tape. It sounds like a bit of a pain but really isn't that hard to get decent results. I've done them a few times.

Of course it'll never look like a stamped bracket doing it that way, but results can be "good enough" (for me anyway.)

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Reply 1922 of 3172, by matze79

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i find the gameport annoying almost all people who use a gus also have some kind of soundblaster combatible inside with a gameport.

well, simply drill the gameport out and use a rasp to smooth the edge.

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Reply 1923 of 3172, by elianda

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Soundblasters don't have a speed compensated game port...

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Reply 1925 of 3172, by matze79

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elianda wrote:

Soundblasters don't have a speed compensated game port...

why should i need that ?

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Reply 1926 of 3172, by 640K!enough

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matze79 wrote:
elianda wrote:

Soundblasters don't have a speed compensated game port...

why should i need that ?

Some games, with some configurations, would be completely out of control when using an ordinary game port (completely unable to hold calibration, drift, response in only a few directions, etc.). The speed-compensating feature of the Gravis Eliminator game card, also featured on the UltraSound line, effectively corrects for this behaviour. Some later software finally had slightly more robust calibration routines, so you may never have noticed the problem, but it did exist, and seems to have been particularly problematic with older Sound Blaster cards and extra-cheap clones.

EDIT: So, to make the point clear, for maximum compatibility with older software on a wider range of configurations, it would actually make more sense to disable the game port on the other sound card, and use the one on the Gravis or ARGUS card. If the superior hardware is already in the system, why not use it?

Last edited by 640K!enough on 2018-08-02, 19:19. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 1927 of 3172, by maverickbna

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Are there replica cards out there in the wild for sale anywhere? I'm interested and would like to know prices and compatibility.

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Reply 1928 of 3172, by 640K!enough

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maverickbna wrote:

Are there replica cards out there in the wild for sale anywhere? I'm interested and would like to know prices and compatibility.

No, not currently. We are still at the late prototype stage, and there has been some discussion of possibly needing to do another round of prototypes before everything is finalised. At least initially, when the production run is ordered, the cards will only be available to people who donated to the project at the outset, or those who made technical contributions. It's not my project, so I can't make any promises, but if there are any chips left over afterwards, some cards may be made available for general sale, but the price is likely to be higher than what the original donors pay, especially if they are pre-assembled.

EDIT: Now that I think of it, some of the early prototypes may be available at auction, at some point. Prices may be "interesting", but feel free to keep your eye on a certain well-known auction site, if you're interested.

Reply 1929 of 3172, by matze79

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The ARGUS is on auction site ? 😳

Why not use a modern Amp (Class D part) ?
Or use some discrete solution.
i think all of these Classic A/B Amp IC's are going EOL soon, even LM386 variations are starting to get EOL.

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https://www.retroianer.de - german retro computer board

Reply 1930 of 3172, by vittek

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640K!enough wrote:

Even then, if everyone has to buy a bracket with the type 15 slot already punched, it will end up being about as expensive as a full run of brackets. The only advantage of that approach is that it doesn't depend on a certain minimum number of people committing to buy one (or several).

In your case, if you can move the game/MIDI port slightly, you can start with one of the pre-punched brackets available almost anywhere (Digi-Key or Mouser, among others). That likely won't be under your 2€ limit, however. Then there is the matter of having to drill and file the remaining holes. I tried that for ARGUS, before looking at the exact measurements, and found out the hard way, after aligning and drilling all of the other holes, that the type 15 cut-out was too high on the bracket for our needs.

I am still looking for a more appropriate manufacturer that we might be able to use for a cheaper, smaller run. My free time has been occupied by other ARGUS-related work over the past few days, but I will get back to the bracket business soon.

Hey 640K!enough, back in May, I had an engineering drawing made and a quote for a full run of brackets. I am sending you a PM now.

Reply 1931 of 3172, by matze79

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i now tested various dma channels and ever get this cracking sounds in blood, very annoying.
Did also test some other Machines, does not happen on my 486 but on my Pentium and on my K6-2.

EDIT:
Trying some other Blood Versions now.
EDIT#2:
Now use latest v1.11 version instead of my floppy/bbs version, the cracking disappeared.
I think its a Software issue.

Also have some problem with Ultrasound Setup, it always changes my interupt back to 11.
Some reboots it stays at 5.. and then its 11 again.

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https://www.retroianer.de - german retro computer board

Reply 1932 of 3172, by 640K!enough

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matze79 wrote:

Also have some problem with Ultrasound Setup, it always changes my interupt back to 11.
Some reboots it stays at 5.. and then its 11 again.

Are you saying that the resources change if you don't do anything differently, or are you running SETUP.EXE when these changes occur? Is the system on which this happens Plug and Play compliant? Does iwinit run every time you boot (via AUTOEXEC.BAT)?

If you mean that the assigned resources change without running any of the InterWave software, it sounds like a configuration problem. My guess would be that the card is periodically assigned different resources during Plug and Play initialisation, and they are not being changed. On most systems, the DOS software uses legacy initialisation mode, not Plug and Play; so iwinit assigns fixed resources, as specified in IW.INI.

The first thing to do is check (or post) your IW.INI. Make sure that it specifies legacy mode, and look at the resource assignments to make sure that they are as you want them. Also make sure you have the resources you want the card to use set as "Legacy ISA" in your BIOS setup, so that they are not assigned to other hardware.

Reply 1933 of 3172, by tpowell.ca

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640K!enough wrote:
Are you saying that the resources change if you don't do anything differently, or are you running SETUP.EXE when these changes o […]
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matze79 wrote:

Also have some problem with Ultrasound Setup, it always changes my interupt back to 11.
Some reboots it stays at 5.. and then its 11 again.

Are you saying that the resources change if you don't do anything differently, or are you running SETUP.EXE when these changes occur? Is the system on which this happens Plug and Play compliant? Does iwinit run every time you boot (via AUTOEXEC.BAT)?

If you mean that the assigned resources change without running any of the InterWave software, it sounds like a configuration problem. My guess would be that the card is periodically assigned different resources during Plug and Play initialisation, and they are not being changed. On most systems, the DOS software uses legacy initialisation mode, not Plug and Play; so iwinit assigns fixed resources, as specified in IW.INI.

The first thing to do is check (or post) your IW.INI. Make sure that it specifies legacy mode, and look at the resource assignments to make sure that they are as you want them. Also make sure you have the resources you want the card to use set as "Legacy ISA" in your BIOS setup, so that they are not assigned to other hardware.

I have similar issues, and could not find a way for the card to respect the legacy mode. The card was always assigned port 220, irq 11 and dma 7. The problem is, I had an AWE32 non-pnp already on port 220, so the gravis setup.exe would fail, and the diagnose app for the AWE32 would also fail. In my case, its a genuine rev1 Ultrasound Pnp.

My card would ignore the IW.INI file when assigning ressources and this regardless of the presence the "legacy" mode line in the ini file.
The way around the problem that I found was to run a ressource configuration program (pnpcfg I think) which assigns possible ressources based on a TXT file I customized.
I defined the only valid values as being port 240, irq 5, dma 6 and 7. This worked as the card would request those specific resources from the BIOS on bootup, before IWINIT even.

I also recall some time ago reading up on the JP9 having something to do with Plug and Play, but when I close the jumper, IWINIT fails to locate the card.

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Reply 1934 of 3172, by vittek

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Hey Everyone, as far as brackets are concerned.

A lot of very talented people are giving lots of time to this project to bring it to life. It's ridiculous that all would go through all of this trouble and have a board without a bracket.

1.) 3D printed bracket. I've done this, and while I understand the cool factor of a 3d printed part, its flimsy at the widths/thickness of an ISA bracket. Also, cost of 3D printing a large batch is cost prohibitive as far as time/filament is concerned. Remember, 10 users might have a 3d printer setup and the time and gumption to make a working bracket, but after cost of shipping its more expensive than getting brackets made professionally.

2.) Changing board layout. The design is nearly finalized and its not realistic to change board layout at this point. That requires a lot of time that could be better served towards getting the boards done. Not a realistic ask.

3.) Buying blanks and doing it yourself. Blanks - I've got a drill press and have drilled holes in blank brackets. I thought it was easy but it's dangerous and time consuming and in all seriousness its not THAT easy to do. Drill, test fit, drill, test fit. Doing that 200 times by hand is ridiculous. There's too much room for human error and it can be done making a jig but the blanks cost almost as much as just having a manufacturer cut them!!! It's easy for members to say we'll just make them ourselves but its not realistic for everyone to fabricate brackets.

I back in May, contacted Gompf brackets in Seattle. I work on a hardware engineering team and do this for a living. A drawing has been made and I have sent to shock___ and 640k!enough (thanks for the help and hard work guys) for test fit. Here's the price, I have been quoted from Gompf.

QUANTITY PRICE EACH
5 $30.85
10 $17.00
25 $9.45
50 $6.85
100 $5.55
200 $4.95
500 $4.51

100 x 5.55 + %10.4 sales tax in washington = $607
200 x 4.95 + %10.4 sales tax in washington = $1092.96

I want to get this done so we can move on to more important items. This project is only going to survive and work if everyone pitches in. I will spring for the brackets for everyone as my contribution to the project. Once I get the OK from someone with a board to test fit, and some idea of where to ship them and an OK from project leaders, I will get them, pick them up locally, and ship them to Germany. They can be distributed along with the cards.

How many do we need? 200 is the most I am willing to pay for along with shipping to Germany.

Reply 1935 of 3172, by 640K!enough

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I have received the file from you, and if it's what I'm expecting, I will print a 1:1 copy and check for fit before the end of the week. However, please do not request an updated quote or proceed with an order until we have a chance to clear this with shock__, when he is available.

As I have mentioned on a number of occasions, there is the matter of the metal tariffs. Your approach would likely result in shock__ getting a rather nasty bill for German taxes and retaliatory tariffs, imposed by the EU. There are EU companies that specialise in brackets, as well, including a subsidiary of Gompf. We may be better off sending the order that way, to keep costs reasonable. Shipping a large number of brackets made in the U.S. or China into Germany will not be the least expensive approach.

There are also a few other matters I will need to confirm related to the first major production run (including the possibility of another prototype run and some design changes). We are much better off getting everything settled before rushing to an order, only to get into all sorts of logistical headaches afterwards.

Reply 1936 of 3172, by vittek

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Cool sounds great 640K! Thanks for your help, and its OK, I'm getting married end of September, so holding off on the order for now until everything is sorted sounds good.

I've lived in Germany for over 5 years, so I understand there may be Zoll to be collected on the order, but I'm not shipping raw materials to a manufacturing plant, this is an individual sending brackets in a box to another.

Also, I'm willing to pay what is a reasonable price locally, foot the bill for everyone, and ship it to Germany. If there's an EU subsidiary who will produce the brackets without a tooling fee for a reasonable price (at a USD/EUR exchange thats not prohibitive to me) that someone wants to speak to, and has a bank that doesn't need IBAN/SWIFT that I can easily get money to, I'm more than willing to do that too.

Gompf is located locally to me, where I can physically pick up the product myself, and if there's a problem deal with it in person.

Once we can get the measurements confirmed on the engineering drawing provided, and input from shock___, I have a manufacturer who's ready to go, who's local who we deal with at work.

Thanks for the help and hard work and I am totally for doing this correctly. I want to help and make sure this project succeeds!!!!

Reply 1937 of 3172, by matze79

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640K!enough wrote:
Are you saying that the resources change if you don't do anything differently, or are you running SETUP.EXE when these changes o […]
Show full quote
matze79 wrote:

Also have some problem with Ultrasound Setup, it always changes my interupt back to 11.
Some reboots it stays at 5.. and then its 11 again.

Are you saying that the resources change if you don't do anything differently, or are you running SETUP.EXE when these changes occur? Is the system on which this happens Plug and Play compliant? Does iwinit run every time you boot (via AUTOEXEC.BAT)?

If you mean that the assigned resources change without running any of the InterWave software, it sounds like a configuration problem. My guess would be that the card is periodically assigned different resources during Plug and Play initialisation, and they are not being changed. On most systems, the DOS software uses legacy initialisation mode, not Plug and Play; so iwinit assigns fixed resources, as specified in IW.INI.

The first thing to do is check (or post) your IW.INI. Make sure that it specifies legacy mode, and look at the resource assignments to make sure that they are as you want them. Also make sure you have the resources you want the card to use set as "Legacy ISA" in your BIOS setup, so that they are not assigned to other hardware.

it does not honor legacy mode.
disabled isa pnp for isa slot, and now it seems to stay on my Settings.
its annoying that i need 2 IRQ's. So i can't use LPT Port anymore if i want to use SB Emulation 😀

Well, Wolfenstein 3D sounds very different 😳 on megaem, on sbos it just freezes.

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https://www.retroianer.de - german retro computer board

Reply 1938 of 3172, by 640K!enough

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I still intend to check more carefully later, but have done a preliminary comparison. The measurements are similar to mine, including the slight millimetre-to-inch rounding errors, though I doubt a few thousandths of an inch will really make too much difference. There are a few things that will need to be changed or considered:

  1. The diameter of the holes is too small to accommodate the audio jacks we are using, much less the slightly larger-diameter plastic variety. The diameter should be increased to 7.25mm [0.285"].
  2. The need for the offset from centre line is unclear. I didn't think there was a need for it, and will have to compare with other common designs.
  3. There is also a questionable offset on the audio jacks, that I don't think we need. It's probably small enough not to cause trouble with fit, but large enough to drive some perfectionists nuts, because it looks ever-so-slightly off-centre (right, hard1k? 🤣)
  4. EDIT: We also need stamped/etched jack labels.

The issue of importing the brackets is not just a matter of German sales taxes and import fees; there is also the matter of the recently-imposed tariffs on metal products. This applies to more than raw materials. As an example, Canadian aluminium being imported into the United States is subject to the tarrifs. The aluminium is turned into cans, then shipped back into Canada as a finished product; the cans, being of U.S. origin, are subject to retaliatory tariffs on aluminium. The result is that prices for canned products (beer, soup, cat food) are expected to rise (some already are here), whether made here or in the United States. Being metal, the E.U. retaliatory tariffs will likely similarly apply to a shipment of brackets between individuals. The key is the material and country of origin. That's one of the things we'll have to look into before making a decision.

Last edited by 640K!enough on 2018-09-01, 00:30. Edited 2 times in total.

Reply 1939 of 3172, by hard1k

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...exactly... 😁

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