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Reply 401 of 741, by Gamewizard

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What warez?
EDIT: Double checking nothing he linked to was warez the software he linked to is his own, everything checks out.

Last edited by Gamewizard on 2017-06-11, 09:28. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 404 of 741, by infiniteclouds

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From what I've read here it seems the SC-55 included in this plugin is just the SC-55 'mode' of the SC-88. Is this identical to a real MKII ? I have a standard GS SC-55 1.2 for the games that require capital tone fallback but am wondering if I should try and get an MKII or 55ST or if this plugin is the same as having one. Is the SC55 mode to an MKII what MUNT is to an MT-32/CM32 or is the SC55 mode like the "mt32 mode" that the SC55 has.

Reply 405 of 741, by MAN-biker

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infiniteclouds wrote:

From what I've read here it seems the SC-55 included in this plugin is just the SC-55 'mode' of the SC-88.

As I know, it's NOT an "emulator of REAL SC-55", but 100% software reincarnation of hardware SC-88.

So, it can do all things which hardware SC-88 can do.

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Reply 406 of 741, by infiniteclouds

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MAN-biker wrote:
infiniteclouds wrote:

From what I've read here it seems the SC-55 included in this plugin is just the SC-55 'mode' of the SC-88.

As I know, it's NOT an "emulator of REAL SC-55", but 100% software reincarnation of hardware SC-88.

So, it can do all things which hardware SC-88 can do.

Ah, so then the SC-55 mode on a real SC-88 is basically like MT32 mode of an SC-55 ..not a true emulation like MUNT.

Reply 407 of 741, by James-F

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infiniteclouds wrote:

From what I've read here it seems the SC-55 included in this plugin is just the SC-55 'mode' of the SC-88.

Small correction: of the SC-8820.

Even the hardware SC-88 with the 55 MAP has roughly 20+ instruments the differ to the hardware SC-55, and almost all the cymbals and some drums in the drum kits differ.
SC-VA uses the control ROM of the SC-8820 with sound bank of the SC-55 when selected, that means even if the sound bank was exactly the same it still would sound/behave differently, unfortunately I consider this a bug in SC-VA or lack of emulation accuracy or care from the programming side.

You can hear what I'm talking about here: http://www.wavetable.nl/category/comparisons/
Play the Doom M1E1 track with the original SC-55 then SC-88, at 00:09 starts a crash cymbal that is 'muted' on the SC-55 but 'rings' on the SC-88 and on.
SC-VA has this crash cymbal 'ring' in all modes, which is not how the SC-55 behaves.
Moreover, listen to Duke Nukem 3D Intro track, on the SC-55 and SC-55 MAP, the crash and ride cymbals and kick drum are different.

So generally I recommend the SC-VA for anything SC-88 and above, but for SC-55 I prefer to use the hardware.


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Reply 408 of 741, by MAN-biker

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James-F wrote:

SC-VA uses the control ROM of the SC-8820 with sound bank of the SC-55 when selected, that means even if the sound bank was exactly the same it still would sound/behave differently, unfortunately I consider this a bug in SC-VA or lack of emulation accuracy or care from the programming side.

I thought Roland fixed this bug in latest build. It's a sad if not and there is no trick to fix it.

James-F wrote:

So generally I recommend the SC-VA for anything SC-88 and above, but for SC-55 I prefer to use the hardware.

In any case, if you have no hardware SC-55, SCVA is still the best choice.

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Reply 410 of 741, by MAN-biker

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infiniteclouds wrote:

I do have a real SC-55 with CTF but I do not have an MKII which I believe is better for mid-90s I think

I think, it's not a point in games.

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Reply 411 of 741, by James-F

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MAN-biker wrote:

I thought Roland fixed this bug in latest build. It's a sad if not and there is no trick to fix it.

It's not a major bug that prevents the SC-VA to sound like SC-55 when a Reset is sent like it was with previous versions.
As I said, the SC-VA uses the SC-8820 control rom with all the MAPs, which might not be audible at all without direct comparison with the hardware SC-55.

infiniteclouds wrote:

I do have a real SC-55 with CTF but I do not have an MKII which I believe is better for mid-90s I think

Not really, they sound and behave the same, and most games use GM standard anyway.
Its' not worth the upgrade to SC-55 MKII if you have a MKI for DOS gaming or anything MIDI.


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Reply 412 of 741, by Falcosoft

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SC-VA uses the control ROM of the SC-8820 with sound bank of the SC-55 when selected, that means even if the sound bank was exactly the same it still would sound/behave differently, unfortunately I consider this a bug in SC-VA or lack of emulation accuracy or care from the programming side.

Are you sure it is also a 'bug' compared to a real SC-8820 HW?
I mean according to documentation the SC-8820 knows 2 methods of Map changing (just like SC-VA).
1. Through Bank LSB (CC#32) messages.
2. Through front panel.
In case 1 it's very unlikely the real SC-8820 use different control ROMs since Map setting is a per channel one. So you can have a configuration that Channel 1 use SC-55 Map, Channel 2 use SC-88 Map and so on.
In case 2 it can be that a real SC-8820 use different control ROMs but in this case it should sound different depending on the Map changing method. I have not seen such a difference mentioned in SC-8820 documentation.
SC-VA sounds the same way independently from what Map changing method you use (so it's consistent in this regard).

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Reply 413 of 741, by James-F

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Falcosoft wrote:

Are you sure it is also a 'bug' compared to a real SC-8820 HW?

I believe so.
The HW 8820 emulates the SC-55 control rom or at least tries to match it, but not the SC-VA.

Go here: http://www.wavetable.nl/category/comparisons/
Listen to:
Doom - E1M1 [Roland SC-55].mp3
Doom - E1M1 [Roland SC-8820].mp3
Doom - E1M1 [Roland SC-8820_55MAP].mp3

At 00:09 starts a "Muted Cymbal" sound on the SC-55 MAP but it will "Ring" on the SC-8820, 88Pro, and 88.
Note that both are on the SC-8820 HW unit.
On the SC-VA this particular Crash will ring with the 55 MAP too, but not on the HW 8820, 88Pro, 88 using the SC-55 MAP.

I might be wrong but I think the control rom has direct affect on all the commands, including Velocity, Pan, SysEx RPN, NRPN, Polyphony number, etc..
I think the HW 88, 88Pro and 8820 have the same control rom, but the SC-55 has a different one.
Just by looking at the polyphony number and "Muted Crash" thing, I can assume this is true.


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Reply 414 of 741, by Falcosoft

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I might be wrong but I think the control rom has direct affect on all the commands, including Velocity, Pan, SysEx RPN, NRPN, Polyphony number, etc..

Yes, I also think it's true. My question referred to the problem of how more than one control ROM can be active simultaneously. I think the mp3 recordings you have linked use the the 'front panel' Map change method so the whole SC-8820 unit is switched to SC-55/88 mode on all channels. (I referred to this mode as case 2 above). My problem is with case 1. How the SC-8820 hw can activate separate control ROMs on different channels at once?
It would be good to hear if there is any difference on a real SC-8820 if you change the Map with Bank LSB messages to SC-55 mode e.g. only on the used channels ( so you will get a hybrid state: half of the channels in native SC-8820 mode and the others in SC-55/88 mode).
Maybe SC-VA emulates the 'Bank LSB Map changing method' correctly but missed to emulate the different 'Front panel method'.

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Reply 415 of 741, by James-F

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Falcosoft wrote:

Maybe SC-VA emulates the 'Bank LSB Map changing method' correctly but missed to emulate the different 'Front panel method'.

Yes it sounds like it's true.
It takes the sound bank of the 55 MAP, but fails to use the proper velocity (I assume because of the crash) of the SC-55 rom, but the HW 8820 does not have this bug.

As for the simultaneous roms I think you're right, It's not actually a different rom per channel, but more like a "command set" a "library" or a "lookup table" that's different on the 55 MAP, as you call 'Front panel method'.

Falco, if you have the time look into the Doom E1M1 track.
On the muted crashes it is actually a very silent crash that should override the previous louder crash, which does not happen on the newer HW 88xx native maps , and also on the SC-VA.
But DOES override the previous crash on the HW SC-55 and the HW 88xx with 55MAPs.
So I also can assume it's velocity related.


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Reply 416 of 741, by Falcosoft

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On the muted crashes it is actually a very silent crash that should override the previous louder crash, which does not happen on the newer HW 88xx native maps

I think the more important aspect is how note off messages are handled on the percussion part. in Doom E1M1 right after the the first C#4(49)/A4(57) cymbal note on messages there are C#4(49)/A4(57) note off messages (the delta time is only 0.1 sec). On the SC-VA the note off messages do not make any difference in this case. They leave the sustain/release phase as is, and never interrupt the audible sound.
You can try it by pressing C#4(49)/A4(57) on a (virtual)keyboard and sustain it, and then press/release C#4(49)/A4(57) as fast as you can. There is almost no audible difference between the 2 methods on SC-VA. So it's rather a percussion ADSR envelope implementation difference between SC-55 and SC-8820/SC-VA.
Edit:
I was wrong and you are right. The important part is the 2nd C#4(49)/A4(57) sequence with a velocity value of 23. MS GM/GS softsynth can be useful here since it reflects the SC-55 behavior correctly 😀. These low velocity values attenuates all the earlier cymbal sounds somehow on SC-55.
Edit2:
I could reproduce the difference:
https://youtu.be/ri9Vi69U_EM

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Reply 417 of 741, by James-F

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Falcosoft wrote:

The important part is the 2nd C#4(49)/A4(57) sequence with a velocity value of 23.

I have tested with the HW SC-55.
The SC-55 overrides the previous sound if the same note is played, mostly on the drum track but also on other instruments.

It seems on later units this behavior is 'fixed' to make the instruments sound more realistic when played in fast sequence for example in a cymbal roll-in type of sound.
This of course changed how tracks sound (like Doom) that rely on this SC-55 behavior.

The strange thing is the HW 8820 actually DOES emulate this behavior on the 55 MAP but not the SC-VA.
Anyway, it's a minor difference and only with few instruments, but if the composer relied on this kind of behavior it should be properly emulated nonetheless.

Cymbals example:

Filename
SC-55.mp3
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178.52 KiB
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Fair use/fair dealing exception
Filename
SC-VA 55MAP.mp3
File size
171.21 KiB
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117 downloads
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

* Note that the first and third cymbals have completely different sound to the HW SC-55, this is true with the 88xx hardware too with 55 MAP.
Roland changed some of the instruments on the 55MAP on later units compared to the HW SC-55, something like 20 instruments.


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Reply 418 of 741, by MAN-biker

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Hey, guys, SCVA 1.0.7 is out (at official site still v1.0.3)!!!
As I see, fixed some bugs in SC-55 emulation?!
If anybody want to test it, search 1.0.7 in google by "Roland+-+VS+SOUND+Canvas+VA+1.0.7+VSTi+x86+x64+-+аналоговый+синтезатор" string or "B676240D4BD5A1E869EFDF2AB742EB4504A55424"

Games' collection 1983-2017. Nickname MAN-biker is registered!
Black Sect Remake (AGS) - Russian version
Lands of Lore: The Throne of Chaos [CD] - Russian version
Warcraft Adventures: Lord of the Clans - Full walkthrough