Yes, resetting the unit between games or even midi albums is really important.
Doom sends a SysEx GM (General Midi) Reset command which on the SC-55 it will sound the same as GS.
But on a later units (like SC-88 and on) a reset command will change to the default Map of the unit.

Question:
Can anyone please inform how a SC-88 (and later) hardware behaves (sounds) when it receives a reset command from Doom for example.
When do you change the sound Map to SC-55, After the reset command or before (before or after running a game)?
Will the SC-55 sound Map stay if the SC-88 receives another "GS Reset" or "GM Reset" command (example, running or quitting Doom)?

I'd like to hear some info from fellows which own the SC-8 and up.

HighTreason wrote:

Credit where credit is due then, finally it seems people are starting to get on the ball with this... It's only taken, what? TOO DAMN LONG! That's how long. Well done Roland, Casio beat you to it again, but well done for getting there.

Ah, so that's what DAW stands for. Not sure I'd class my setup as that so I won't start using the term - I will stick to my clunky "Sequencing Rig" as it better suits the complete shambles I have set up - but at least I'll know what people mean when they say it in future. I don't know if it's improved since, but I could never get into this Reason and Fruit Loops stuff, it was never very good at controlling any of my hardware and suffered terrible latency issues - not to mention issues with SysEx as I mentioned previously. This was all a long time ago though, I don't plan on changing this as Cakewalk 9 supports my stuff pretty much out of the box and is from the correct era, so logically it would be the best option for me.

Latency issues occur in DAWs if you're not using ASIO-compliant hardware (i.e. integrated realtek audio which should never be used for audio production). Reason is a slightly different animal since it uses 'ReWire', although the ReDrum software is quite flexible-- I prefer superior drummer but it's a decent contender.

Did you ever see the Casio XW-G1? Take a look if you haven't:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVJZVnfahuw
(I'm not a Casio fan as I have predisposition to Moog, ARP, Yamaha and Roland, but thought it had some neat sounds)

---

I hope Roland releases a software plugin of their JV series! Then I wouldn't have to deal with clunky MIDI configurations (I find it difficult managing multitimbral external hardware from a DAW-- because you can only listen to the device while it's running, going through presents is a chore, and you have to record the final input).

James-F, thanks for all the research you're doing on this!

If anyone has any idea about this, I wonder if it would be possible to further tweak the software to use it with the games affected by the "capital tone fallback" error - i.e. Might & Magic World of Xeen and Lands of Lore (there may be others)

raymangold wrote:

Latency issues occur in DAWs if you're not using ASIO-compliant hardware (i.e. integrated realtek audio which should never be used for audio production). Reason is a slightly different animal since it uses 'ReWire', although the ReDrum software is quite flexible-- I prefer superior drummer but it's a decent contender.

Didn't get on with Reason either. My hardware is ASIO compliant and is using ASIO drivers. It doesn't matter anyway, as Cake 9 can pretty much map and control everything I have properly right out of the box, plus I have the .INS files and a bunch of .SYX files for everything else. Probably does help that some of the software I use was written for Win16 and doesn't play well, if at all, under Windows NT. Linux support is non-existent too, but I could probably move to an Atari ST if I wanted to be really awkward.

Did you ever see the Casio XW-G1? Take a look if you haven't:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVJZVnfahuw
(I'm not a Casio fan as I have predisposition to Moog, ARP, Yamaha and Roland, but thought it had some neat sounds)

Yeah, my friend has the XW-P1 which I keep meaning to try and borrow. Partly so I can do a proper demo instead of this bum note tapping BS that seem to do so well on YouTube, at least this guy doesn't totally cheap out on it. Moog? ARP? That backwards-ass nonsense? Nah, the ARP Odyssey was pretty good but it was looking very old by the time they stopped making it and it was a bitch to work with. I tend to gravitate towards older Yamaha gear, but only from the 90s, I want another DX for some of the sounds it can make but their 80s gear really did suck pretty hard in reality. Roland are still in the 60s, think they even still make analog crap, probably re-released the damn Jupiter again, horrible synth. Honestly, never did like anything they made and it always seems to break when I go near it - and it really shouldn't, given all I ever tried to do was create music with it.

Always got on well with Casio gear and it's a shame they don't play around in the pro market more, their stuff always seems to just work and the CZ was horribly underrated. The Bass and pads it can produce are just evil, even the smallest models like my CZ-1000 or the internally similar CZ-101 which I don't own as I have the CZ-1000 and 5000. I also like the RZ-1 drum machine, it's nice to annoy LinnDrum and TR-808 owners by sampling their machine, given the price gap.

Newest thing I own is probably the MU90R, prior to that I have a Korg O1R but only for some of the 90s sounds and I don't really like it very much. If I had the money, I'd get a Prophet 5 (SCI), pretty much the only analog I have time for. The rest are either too early to interest me very much or are just pathetic excuses that shouldn't have been made in the first place - CS80 anyone? Piece of junk.

... (Goes off into a dream world where he owns the SCI Prophet 5)

Anyway, here's hoping Roland can fix the small bugs in this VST as I am sure it will prove very useful to a lot of people. Even I would consider using it for compatibility if it wasn't so easy to just use my SCC-1.

MMaximus wrote:

If anyone has any idea about this, I wonder if it would be possible to further tweak the software to use it with the games affected by the "capital tone fallback" error - i.e. Might & Magic World of Xeen and Lands of Lore (there may be others)

Done some research and testing.

First, you must keep in mind that it only applies to Sound Canvas specific (GS) music or games.
Sadly like the real hardware past the first revision of SC-55, SC-VA will not fallback to capital.

From SC-88 and on according to the manuals, the hardware requires three midi messages in that order to properly switch the sound:
1. The value of Control Change 0: (Bank, Variation)
2. The value of Control Change 32: (Map)
3. Program Change value: (Patch, Instrument)

If the Variation does not exist in the specific Map you've chosen, SC-VA will just show "---------" for instrument and use the previous sound.

I don't understand why this is so important or worrisome if you have a software that can do all sounds up to SC-8820?
If you have the Hardware on the other hand, this becomes much more important!
Playing midi files that were composed specifically for the SC-88Pro (GS format) which call for certain Variation that exist only on the 88pro, might/will sound absolutely wrong on earlier models if the variation does not exist.
For example: If you played a Heavy Metal Guitars on channel 4, then switched to Jingle Bells composed on a 8820 with very specific Variation of bell sounds on channel 4 while forcing Map SC-55... You're in for a treat! 😎

What can we do?
Use the latest SC model, 8820 in this case; or be absolutely sure on what model or year the GS (Sound Canvas) music was composed on.
If it's General Midi like most if not all Games, you have nothing to worry about as all SC models fully support all GM Instruments which are only Capitals and no Variations.
If it's a game, just select the General Midi instead of the Sound Canvas option in the setup.exe or whatever.

Cheers 😀

PS.
Yes you can have some sort of Fallback to Capital trick with SAVIHost.
Just Filter out (disable) Controller 000 "Bank(Variation) Select". This just calls for an instrument and ignore the variation/bank request, basically General Midi 1 (all capitals no variations).
Probably okay for SC-55 GS music or games as the variations are small and sound very close to one another, but less and less okay as the GS specific music goes up in SC versions.
😊

James-F wrote:

Yes, resetting the unit between games or even midi albums is really important. Doom sends a SysEx GM (General Midi) Reset comman […]
Show full quote

Yes, resetting the unit between games or even midi albums is really important.
Doom sends a SysEx GM (General Midi) Reset command which on the SC-55 it will sound the same as GS.
But on a later units (like SC-88 and on) a reset command will change to the default Map of the unit.

Question:
Can anyone please inform how a SC-88 (and later) hardware behaves (sounds) when it receives a reset command from Doom for example.
When do you change the sound Map to SC-55, After the reset command or before (before or after running a game)?
Will the SC-55 sound Map stay if the SC-88 receives another "GS Reset" or "GM Reset" command (example, running or quitting Doom)?

I'd like to hear some info from fellows which own the SC-8 and up.

Actually, a GM reset does not change the selected map on hardware if the unit has been set to use a different default map. This was a potential issue if a song, for example, changed the unit into SC-55 mode via sysex rather than accessing the SC-55 tones via a bank select command. The unit would be stuck in that mode until the map was consciously reset. All GM or GS resets would do is reset the controller and instrument values to default, but the default map would remain set to whatever it previously was. If a bank select was being used to select which version of an instrument was being used, rather than the unit's map being changed, that would be reset however.

Also, just a quick point about GM and GS resets that could be useful: they're not interchangeable. I can't recall if the SC-55 does this, but on the later units, if they receive a GM reset they will stop responding to any bank select or NRPM control messages, i.e. the GS effects and variation tones are locked out. This has to be undone with the GS reset or GM system off sysex.

So as to your question: IMHO on hardware it's best to set the map before you run the game, although it doesn't really matter to be honest.

Thanks Silanda, exactly the info I was looking for.
So the hardware sound canvas should not reset the Map even when a sysex reset command in received if a different map is selected on the front panel... understood.
Yes, I figured that GM will lock out the Variations and NRPN which are exclusive to GS mode (same on the Yamaha XG I think).

I've attempted to build an Audio Unit player into Cog, for OS X, to support MIDI playback through the AU version of this plug-in. It has been a failure.

https://gitlab.kode54.net/kode54/Cog/blob/mas … IDI/AUPlayer.mm

It crashes at a random time into the render with some error freeing memory that it shouldn't have. I get no such error when using Apple's DLSMusicDevice synthesizer.

JamesF, thanks for the helpful info. Sadly my trial has expired so I can't try the SaviHost trick. Maybe if I decide to buy the full version someday...

I was interested in the capital tone fallback feature not for midifile listening, but specifically for these two games - World of Xeen and Lands of Lore. I used to play them with my SCC-1 back in the day and their respective soundtrack played without problems. A few years ago I bought a used SC-55Mk1 and tried the games under DosBox - worked perfectly too. Now I have a SC-55MkII and can attest that these two games exhibit the "No Instrument" error - therefore lacking some sound effects.

No, the SC-VA does not support Fallback to Capital.

Attached is a recording of the events from World of Xeen.

When I walk the game calls for all controllers reset (121) and wheel reset across all channels, then it changes controller 0 to select variation 5,
then calls for patch Applause which should result in a Footstep; Exactly like it explained in the SC-55 manual to properly change to a GS variation.
When I fire an arrow the game calls for Controller 0 variation 5 patch Acoustic Bass.
According to the manual these is no variation 5 of Acoustic Bass therefor I hear another Footstep when I shoot an arrow.

To me it seems that the developers of Xeen simply ignored the integer in the variation spot when changing to a patch that does not need it.
So this integer in the variation/bank spot simply was sent with the previous value it had in it.
We don't need it, so we simply send whatever is still in it.... 😕 😒 😐 😢
Man, a single spared line of code in 1993 causes so much pain and suffering in 2016... why god WHY!!!! you lazy bums!!!

If you ask me, there is no such thing as "Fallback to Capital" feature as we call it now, it's simply lousy programming that worked for the developers for the particular hardware they had, and they never looked back.
MMaximus, "Fallback to Capital" thing is just lazy or mistaken programming and nothing else.
The SC-55 clearly states how to properly change variations and patches, nowhere I've seen statement like "If you switch to capital patch you can ignore controller 0".
On the contrary, the manual specifically states "Send the messages in the following order when creating the MIDI messages with a sequencer or a personal computer"
I imagine personal computer includes games...
Right there on page 46: http://cdn.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/SC-55MKII_OM.pdf

All in good spirit and humor of course. 😀

Once again, here's the Sound Canvas VA test player for Mac OS X, and it crashes and reports errors trying to locate some of its internal files. Playback works fine with the commented DLSMusicDevice in AUPlayer.mm.

https://gitlab.kode54.net/kode54/AUMIDIPlayer/tree/master

If anyone feels like telling me if I've done something wrong with my player implementation, please let me know.

Hmm it seems like this is not a proper exact replacement for the SC-55.
From recordings i have heard, i am guessing it is more "emulating" a sc 8820 using a sc-55 map rather than a sc-55 itself.

The reason i say this is i have some recordings i made from an online test from here of the doom intro midi: doom intro music fidelity query (sc-55 vs soundfonts vs vsc etc)
The file i have on my other pc has those recordings and i don't know exactly what maps they are using as i didn't label the file but i would imagine they are sc-8820 native and sc-8820 using sc-55 map.
Both seem similar to what i have heard from the Sound Canvas VA / Sound Canvas for ios recordings.

The sweep sound of the Halo pad is wayyy quieter.
This makes it much less prominent in the intro.mid . You can also notice the difference in the E2M2 at the start.

Version 2.0 of patch-93's sc-55 soundfont does the halo pad "sweep" effect rather nicely - you can get it from here (the effect isn't illustrated in the video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tmN1a3cDMg

I am rather disappointed. String Ensemble 1 sounds nothing like on a real SC-55, even with the SC-55 map selected. Just listen to the Sierra fanfare at the beginning of games like King's Quest 6 or Space Quest 5. The one thing I love about the original SC-55's String Ensemble 1 sound is that it actually sounds like a string instrument instead of a stringy synth pad.

I would be willing to pay $125 for perfect emulation, but if all I'm getting is "close but not quite", I might as well stick with BassMIDI and an SC-55 sound font.

And another point: to quote Cloudschatze, "I don't know why it is that people think Doom, Duke Nukem 3D, and Descent are somehow showcase titles for General MIDI music." Word.

You might be hearing the 8820.
This first release version has a bug which locks the SC-VA in 8820 map no matter what you select or see in the GUI.

No, the 8820 map sounds even more different.

I have uploaded comparison recordings for all you doubters out there.

Real Roland SC-55 (actually a Roland CM-500, which explains the higher noise floor, for which I apologize)
Roland Sound Canvas VA with SC-55 map
Roland Sound Canvas VA with SC-88 map
Roland Sound Canvas VA with SC-88Pro map
Roland Sound Canvas VA with SC-8820 map

If it were stuck on the SC-8820 map, the last four would all sound the same.

For further comparison, here is a recording made using Patch93's SC-55 version 2.0 sound font. The sample is the correct one, but the relative volume of the several notes is wrong, and the last high string note exhibits audible looping.

To me, the strings sound pretty similar to the SC-55 map on an SC-8820. I don't have my SC-155 set up at the moment to test against.

SC-8820 Manual:

The SC-8820 has four maps: an SC-8820 map, which contains original sounds; an SC-88Pro map, which contains the same sounds as t […]
Show full quote

The SC-8820 has four maps: an SC-8820 map, which contains original sounds;
an SC-88Pro map, which contains the same sounds as the SC-88Pro; an SC-88 map, which
contains the same sounds as the SC-88; and an SC-55 map, which contains almost the
same sounds as the SC-55/SC-55mkII. If you wish to use the same sounds as the SC-
88Pro, SC-88, or SC-55, change the map.

SC-88Pro Manual:

This unit has three maps; a Native map which contains original sounds, an SC-55
map which contains almost the same sounds as the SC-55/SC-55mkII, and an SC-88
map which contain the same sounds as the SC-88.

The SC-VA is simply a SC-8820 in a VST plugin, no further explanation is needed.

Well, that seals it, then, because I don't give a damn about the 8820; I just want exactly the General MIDI sound that the composers intended in DOS games.

Yes that's what i thought in my post - the thing is emulating an 8820 using its sc-55 map, not an actual sc-55.

I can't tell you how good a job it does at that as i don't have an 8820 or any hardware synth sadly.

I think it just highlights the need for another MUNT-like project but for SC-55.

Mind you, i really wonder what games were composed for othersynths rather than just the SC-55.
Were any specifically composed for Yamaha synths? And is there a program that will read midi files / rips and tell you if they are GM / GS / XG / GM2 ?

For example, Theme Hospital was released in 97 / 98 which i would have thought was way late for SC-55 ? But then it depends on the composer.
Also it uses weird XMI files for the midi - not sure why.

I read for Transport Tycoon, it was composed for OPL and then that was upgraded and enhanced for SCC-1 (so SC-55 - at least i imagine there are no differences ? )
Then he also did adjusted GUS versions etc etc.

So for that game there are a few options but for GM, it seems SC-55 is correct at least.

But yer, Theme Hospital has some good midi test music with nice variety of instruments.