People like to obsess over what doesn't work and chase the "perfect" sound card when often the issue affects 0.01% of games 🤣

I'd love to have "what is the fallout" be included in sound card discussion, I think that would help a bit to make choosing a card easier.

Some are quite substantial, like the hanging note bug if you're using a GM device, others are are virtually without any impact, like the SB16 and not being digital stereo compatible with SB Pro 2.

Audician32

- Original OPL3
- SBpro in Stereo
- full MPU401i Interface no hanging notes bug
- GM-Upgrade-socket

Not perfect, but really good. Don't know if it has WDM drivers.

Thanks for the responses but I'm asking what the difference between the two is, basically..

For a real dos-soundcard the sbpro stereo is much more important then sb16 support.

dr.zeissler wrote:

For a real dos-soundcard the sbpro stereo is much more important then sb16 support.

I was under the impression that this assumption is far from being unanimously accepted here.

dr.zeissler wrote:

For a real dos-soundcard the sbpro stereo is much more important then sb16 support.

Why? Because of games that have SB Pro Stereo sound but no SB16 option? Is SB16 emulation superior to SB Pro otherwise?

appiah4 wrote:

Why? Because of games that have SB Pro Stereo sound but no SB16 option?

That is one aspect, pretty much.
And from the other side, SB16 isn't really 'superior' to SB Pro in practice.
We are talking the pre-CDROM era, where using 16-bit samples and/or high sample rates was not practical anyway.
So even games that support SB16 often use it as a faux 8-bit stereo card, usually with samples in the range of 8-11 kHz.
By the time 16-bit audio was gaining in popularity, the SB16 was already outdated and surpassed by newer cards such as the GUS and AWE32.
So that makes the SB16 a bit of a catch-22.
Either you're fine with an SB Pro-compatible card, or you'll want something better than an SB16.

Another aspect is that I don't think the SB16 was ever a very popular card, and therefore didn't really establish a standard as much as the earlier SBs did. That is, the games that support the SB16, often also support various other 16-bit cards from that era, such as Windows Sound System, ESS AudioDrive, Pro Audio Spectrum 16 and such.
That makes specific SB16-compatibility a lot less important than SB/SB Pro compatibility was.

At least, that's how I experienced it. My DOS sound card history is something like this:
1) SB Pro 2.0
2) GUS MAX
3) GUS Extreme (GF1 + ESS AudioDrive)

None of these were SB16-compatible, but I never felt the need for an SB16-compatible card.
When I got the GUS MAX, I did feel the need for an SB/SB Pro-compatible card, so I just used both cards in the same system. But the GUS MAX catered to all of my 16-bit needs.
The GUS Extreme basically gave me a single-card solution for this. Some games also supported the ESS AudioDrive natively. Both the GUS MAX and the ESS AudioDrive could also be used with certain software that had WSS-support.

Scali wrote:

appiah4 wrote:

Why? Because of games that have SB Pro Stereo sound but no SB16 option?

That is one aspect, pretty much.

Are there many such games in practice?

And from the other side, SB16 isn't really 'superior' to SB Pro in practice.
We are talking the pre-CDROM era, where using 16-bit samples and/or high sample rates was not practical anyway.
So even games that support SB16 often use it as a faux 8-bit stereo card, usually with samples in the range of 8-11 kHz.
By the time 16-bit audio was gaining in popularity, the SB16 was already outdated and surpassed by newer cards such as the GUS and AWE32.

So that makes the SB16 a bit of a catch-22.
Either you're fine with an SB Pro-compatible card, or you'll want something better than an SB16.[/quote]Well, there are still plenty of CDROM games for DOS. You may be right about the timeline - the SB16 was "top of the line" only for a short time, and not many games utilized specifically its capabilities.

However, what is an AWE32/AWE64? It's basically just an SB16 + EMU8000. Generally, I would prefer an AWE to an SB16, but I think there are more SB16 flavors with a genuine OPL chip, and some value those very highly. So you can get a genuine OPL + 16-bit digital capability in an SB16 package.

GUS is different, IIRC, it is not SB-compatible at all, unless you had the GUS Extreme, so unless you had that - you'd need a second card (as you did).

Scali wrote:

At least, that's how I experienced it. My DOS sound card history is something like this: 1) SB Pro 2.0 2) GUS MAX 3) GUS Extreme […]
Show full quote

At least, that's how I experienced it. My DOS sound card history is something like this:
1) SB Pro 2.0
2) GUS MAX
3) GUS Extreme (GF1 + ESS AudioDrive)

None of these were SB16-compatible, but I never felt the need for an SB16-compatible card.

Given this history, it is understandable you did not feel the need for an SB16-compatible card. But, if you happened to have had an SB16 instead, you probably would not feel the need for an SBPro-compatible card. I think the most important for DOS games was plain SB compatibility, and both SBPro and SB16 give you that. Between the two, they are slightly different but not in a very meaningful way. That is, each had its quirks, but in most scenarios you would probably be fine with whatever you had.

dr_st wrote:

Are there many such games in practice?

Perhaps not that many, but one of them is Wolfenstein 3D, which is kind of a big thing.
I think you may find more SB Pro-stuff in the demoscene/tracker world than with games per se. Games didn't really adopt the SB Pro very quickly, and mostly stuck to standard SB sound.

dr_st wrote:

However, what is an AWE32/AWE64? It's basically just an SB16 + EMU8000. Generally, I would prefer an AWE to an SB16, but I think there are more SB16 flavors with a genuine OPL chip, and some value those very highly. So you can get a genuine OPL + 16-bit digital capability in an SB16 package.

Problem is, the real SB16 is a bad card.
It's extremely noisy, and it has bugs in the DSP implementation, that causes crackling audio in early SB games.
The SB Pro doesn't suffer from that, it is 100% compatible.
There are various geniune OPL + 16-bit digital capability options that may be better than the SB16 in various ways, such as the PAS16 or the WSS.

dr_st wrote:

But, if you happened to have had an SB16 instead, you probably would not feel the need for an SBPro-compatible card.

Perhaps if I never had an SB Pro before, and I wouldn't really miss the SB Pro-only games.
But since I did, I would never have traded my SB Pro for an SB16.

dr_st wrote:

I think the most important for DOS games was plain SB compatibility, and both SBPro and SB16 give you that.

Not really, as mentioned, the SB16 is notoriously buggy with SB compatibility.
I consider the SB Pro 2.0 the best sound card for early DOS games, because it gives you all of these:
1) Perfect AdLib/OPL2 compatibility
2) Perfect SB1.x/2.0 compatibility
3) Perfect SB Pro 2.0/OPL3 compatibility
4) Support for connecting PC speaker
5) Software-controlled mixer for line-in, mic, FM, PC speaker and CD-ROM.

The only thing that is 'missing' is C/MS support. But it's not a big miss. Not many games support it, the ones that do sound horrible, and most of them also have AdLib/SB support, which sound better anyway.

The combo of SB Pro 2.0 + GUS MAX is even more ossom, because then you also have:
6) GUS GF1 support
7) 16-bit CODEC with limited WSS support
😎 Emulated MT-32/Sound Canvas support
9) MPU-401 UART compatible MIDI port

I think for just two soundcards that's a pretty big bang for the buck... You have support for virtually everything you could want in the DOS era.

The answer to this thread question is: BOTH 😁

But seriously, all you need for DOS is OPL3, MPU-401, Wavetable header, bug free and fully compatible DSP.
They can't provide all of them each by itself, but together, they are powerful and cover the last decade of the 20th century in audio needs.
Or something like the Audician 32.

Well, and maybe GUS for Epic Pinball and Jazz Jackrabbit, but they'll do fine with a SB.

James-F wrote:

But seriously, all you need for DOS is OPL3, MPU-401, Wavetable header, bug free and fully compatible DSP.
...
Well, and maybe GUS for Epic Pinball and Jazz Jackrabbit, but they'll do fine with a SB.

For games perhaps...
For DOS demoscene, the GUS is a must. Quite literally, since there are various demos that either have no sound at all, or even refuse to start, if you do not have a GUS.

Scali wrote:

For DOS demoscene, the GUS is a must. Quite literally,

Sounds like you take demoscene too seriously, they are not interactive, it's like listening to music with a visualization.
Personally I never took fancy of demoscene, you can't actually do anything with it.
What's the point?

There are indeed some GUS demoscene exclusives out there, but not so many.

Scali wrote:

Perhaps not that many, but one of them is Wolfenstein 3D, which is kind of a big thing.

Ahh... So Wolf3D supports stereo on an SBPro? And it does not support SB16? So a SB16 with Wolf3D will give you mono sound?

Scali wrote:

Problem is, the real SB16 is a bad card.
It's extremely noisy, and it has bugs in the DSP implementation, that causes crackling audio in early SB games.
The SB Pro doesn't suffer from that, it is 100% compatible.

That's a good point.

Scali wrote:

Not really, as mentioned, the SB16 is notoriously buggy with SB compatibility.

I may have missed that; in what ways is SB16 buggy with SB (not SBPro) compatibility? Or are you referring to the sound quality bugs you mentioned above?

Scali wrote:

The combo of SB Pro 2.0 + GUS MAX is even more ossom, because then you also have: 6) GUS GF1 support 7) 16-bit CODEC with limite […]
Show full quote

The combo of SB Pro 2.0 + GUS MAX is even more ossom, because then you also have:
6) GUS GF1 support
7) 16-bit CODEC with limited WSS support
😎 Emulated MT-32/Sound Canvas support
9) MPU-401 UART compatible MIDI port

I think for just two soundcards that's a pretty big bang for the buck... You have support for virtually everything you could want in the DOS era.

That does sound good. I assume the MT-32/SC emulation on the GUS MAX is better / more reliable than that on the AWE cards?

From this discussion I am moving towards agreeing with the view you presented that a raw SB16 is not such an interesting card, and you are better off with an SBPro2 (with a GUS or a Wavetable daughterboard), or an AWE32/64.

A couple of nitpicks. I believe the Audiodrive cards used their own interface method, not WSS. MPXPlay, for instance, has a dedicated ESS mode. Also, Wolf3d's stereo effects work just fine with a SB16 as it isn't two channel PCM but rather balance controls that provide stereo separation. Also, the 16 bit SB cards do suffer bugs, but the level of noise can be very low for some models. Not all are built alike.

I'd probably restate the question a little bit. From a PCM standpoint, we can consider the AWE32, AWE64, and SB16 cards to be equivalent with specific models differing in performance, so we're comparing SB Pro 2.0 wave output to SB 16 and SB Pro 2.0 OPL3 to SB 16 (either CQM or true OPL3). EMU could be provided with a Goldfinch card or by using an AWE.

On the balance, I think SB Pro compatibility is much more important than 16 bit SB, but 16 bit SB cards do have some games for which they're the best option. Chief among these would be Crusader: No Remorse and No Regret where SB16 is even better than GUS with the patch applied. However, there are many earlier titles which offered PAS support, for instance, but not SB Pro 2.0. So, even if your focus is on earlier gaming, you have options as far as which card to use.

dr.zeissler wrote:

There are indeed some GUS demoscene exclusives out there, but not so many.

Erm, there are VERY many GUS exclusives.
So many in fact that pouet.net dedicates a special category to them: http://www.pouet.net/prodlist.php?platform%5B … os%2Fgus&page=1

James-F wrote:

Sounds like you take demoscene too seriously, they are not interactive, it's like listening to music with a visualization.
Personally I never took fancy of demoscene, you can't actually do anything with it.
What's the point?

I think you fail to see the point: someone has to MAKE these demos.
Why do they make demos? Well, for their own entertainment, to learn new skills, and to compete with others.
Of course, if you aren't interested in creating any code, graphics, music or whatever, you may not see the point.
But I have learnt far more in my years of coding demos and talking to other demosceners than I did studying CS at uni and working as a professional software engineer/architect. Coding demos is pushing the boundaries in ways you rarely see in everyday life.
I suppose for at least a certain subset of demos, they don't make much sense until you know enough to appreciate the effort and skill that went into making them. And the tricks and inspiration you can pick up from them.

The 90s were the 'golden age' of demos, where many demos actually contained tighter and more advanced code than actual games. In those days, quite a few demo groups actually founded their own game studios, some of which are still alive and well today.
Some examples would be The Silents, who founded DICE, and Triton, who founded Starbreeze studios.
Even today, various game developers are still active in the demoscene. You meet some of the brightest minds in the world there.

Scali wrote:

dr.zeissler wrote:

There are indeed some GUS demoscene exclusives out there, but not so many.

Erm, there are VERY many GUS exclusives.
So many in fact that pouet.net dedicates a special category to them: http://www.pouet.net/prodlist.php?platform%5B … os%2Fgus&page=1

yes indeed much more than I had expected / remembered.

Thx scali!

Okay, this perhaps doesn't apply to most users here, but.. I'm still an abidingly user of MOD4WIN and love to listen music to with it.
So 16Bit Stereo and 44.1 KHz sampling rate means a lot to me!
That's why I like to have an advanced soundcard even in my retro rig, as I did back in the day.

Back then, I was a happy user of a PAS16 and never had to regret it. In fact, looking back, I'm grateful even more now.
I never had to worry about all the Sound Blaster problems (nor the EMM386 headache).

Me and my dad installed the card in my 286, ran the install software and done.
No conflicts, no noise. It just worked. In fact, I had no idea about what "Sound Blaster" really was.
To me, it was just another obscure, outdated standard my PAS16 had a legacy portion for (optional SB 2.0 "emulation").

Sounds contumelious, doesn't it ? 😉 Well, I can't help it. That's what I thought back then.
I had no idea about the SBPro/SB16 rivalry, either. For some reason, all my games supported my card.
Even natively in 16Bit mode (Descent comes to mind). Only the shareware/freewares games required ancient Sound Blaster.
But even then, no SBPro was required. Most of them were coded for SoundBlaster 1.0 and OPL2 anyway, something my PAS16 could do with ease.

It wasn't until the late 90s that I got myself a real SoundBlaster card (you know, that archaic piece of hardware).
It was an original SoundBlaster 16 (literally "original", it was a CT1740).

And again, I had no issues with soundcards. Despite the fact, that I had to set something called a "jumper". 😮
I really was surprised about that fact! I felt like an archeologist holding a bone of a dinosaur. ^^
Anway, this time I was lucky again. Thanks to the jumpers, I hadn't to fiddle with all those Creative TSRs.

Later, I played my favorite games with the SB16 and was impressed about how fat its sound was.
I then used that card for all my Windows 98 machines also. Later, I got interested in FM syntesis and read a lot about OPL2/OPL3.

That's when I became aware of the Sound Blaster 2.0. cards. They had a genuine OPL2 and a SB 2.x DAC (just like my PAS16 once had!).
And as time passed, I collected these old cards, repaired them and learned to hold them in honour.
But to this day, I haven't seen the need for a SB Pro. If I was a scener, then maybe. But even then,
a Gravis Ultrasound would have been be quite appealing. 😉