Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Discussion about old sound cards, MIDI devices and sound related accessories.

Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby BeginnerGuy » 2017-10-19 @ 22:34

SOLVED - Except I'm not sure what solved it :blah:

Couple of questions... Not sure if this belongs in sound or here.

Edit: This is a Win98 system with an Awe32 (Technically SB32 CT3600, but that should not affect midi), not dosbox.

I have the Duke 3d .MID files and they sound great with the Masterpiece sound font on my Awe32, but I can't get this sound in game.

What exactly is the difference between choosing AWE32 and General Midi? When I select AWE32, will it still use the GM synth .sf2 I've loaded with AWECP32? I'm curious because when I play the game with AWE32 selected (proper ports, verified a million times), it sounds HORRIBLE. Usually playing a random Midi file before launching the game fixes it somewhat, but it doesn't seem to be using the .sf2 sound font I've loaded.

If I select General Midi in game settings, I just get an MPU-401 error. Other games, i.e. DOOM, do GM playback using the sound font as long as they are launched through Windows. So what gives?
Last edited by BeginnerGuy on 2017-10-22 @ 01:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby gerwin » 2017-10-20 @ 00:59

The AWE32 midi option in DOS games makes the game use the presets for the 1MB ROM soundset. (There are very few games that load some custom samples.)
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Re: Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby BeginnerGuy » 2017-10-20 @ 01:03

gerwin wrote:The AWE32 midi option in DOS games makes the game use the presets for the 1MB ROM soundset. (There are very few games that load some custom samples.)


Ah yes I understand, I think Final Fantasy VII loads in it's own sound font (though that's a 9x example).

Do you know if Duke 3d should play General Midi for me? I just get an MPU-401 not detected error, as if the only way to play GM with this game is through an external synth? I find that odd.
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Re: Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby derSammler » 2017-10-20 @ 06:23

You can only select General MIDI in a game if you enable GM emulation with AWEUTIL, and that works for real-mode games only.
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Re: Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby appiah4 » 2017-10-20 @ 10:58

derSammler wrote:You can only select General MIDI in a game if you enable GM emulation with AWEUTIL, and that works for real-mode games only.


My memory tells me that this is not true for AWE64 and I doubt it's true for AWE32, in Win9x there should be a MIDI device for AWE32's MIDI Synth and if you pick that as default, load the SF2 in AWE Control, then pick General MIDI in Duke3D it should work fine in all games.
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Re: Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby jesolo » 2017-10-20 @ 10:59

I've managed to play Duke Nukem 3D from within a Windows 98 DOS command prompt.
In such a case, you would choose General MIDI as your music device and not AWE32 (as Gerwin has stated, the latter is only meant under "real mode" DOS where you would want a protected mode game to be able to access the EMU8000 synthesis chip directly).
It should then playback the corresponding soundfont that you've loaded under the AWE Control Panel (obviously, it has to conform to the General MIDI standard or else you will get weird sounds).
Last edited by jesolo on 2017-10-20 @ 11:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby jesolo » 2017-10-20 @ 11:02

appiah4 wrote:
derSammler wrote:You can only select General MIDI in a game if you enable GM emulation with AWEUTIL, and that works for real-mode games only.


My memory tells me that this is not true for AWE64 and I doubt it's true for AWE32, in Win9x there should be a MIDI device for AWE32's MIDI Synth and if you pick that as default, load the SF2 in AWE Control, then pick General MIDI in Duke3D it should work fine in all games.

What derSammler stated is correct but, for real mode games only (i.e., games that do not make use of a DOS extender) and this applies under "real" DOS only.
Under Windows, you always choose General MIDI as your music device and there is no need to load Aweutil in such a case.
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Re: Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby derSammler » 2017-10-20 @ 11:43

Then Duke3D seems to be very picky if it still spits out an MPU-401 error.
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Re: Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby collector » 2017-10-20 @ 13:47

BeginnerGuy wrote:Couple of questions... Not sure if this belongs in sound or here.

This should be in Marvin > Sound. This forum is for DOS games on modern systems.
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Re: Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby jesolo » 2017-10-20 @ 14:03

derSammler wrote:Then Duke3D seems to be very picky if it still spits out an MPU-401 error.

Under the AWE Control Panel, there is an option for MPU-401 emulation. Just make sure it is ticked.
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Re: Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby derSammler » 2017-10-20 @ 14:41

Ok, then this is just the Windows equivalent of AWEUTIL. :D
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Re: Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby BitWrangler » 2017-10-20 @ 15:58

jesolo wrote:I've managed to play Duke Nukem 3D from within a Windows 98 DOS command prompt.


For teh lulz you can also play it in a Win 3.11 dos prompt, which will be darn slow with windows swap file thrash. However, should you find yourself in a situation where you have less than 6MB of RAM and swapfile on a "fast" SSD, well anything better than 50MB/sec, then at least it will play.
Basement full of ancient PC stuff, starting to go through it. Most recently toyed with DOS era stuff 15 years ago, so memory might be rusty. So what's this BitWrangler guy's deal ??? >>> http://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=56382
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Re: Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby BeginnerGuy » 2017-10-20 @ 17:28

I have mpu-401 emulation checked and awe32 is set as my midi device in control panel -> multimedia but duke 3d (i also tested atomic edition) would simply give me an mpu401 not detected error.

I'll test it out again in DOS mode but if i remember correctly you can't use large sound fonts without windows,the one im trying to use is 28Mb.

Thanks for all the input
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Re: Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby jesolo » 2017-10-20 @ 18:11

BeginnerGuy wrote:I have mpu-401 emulation checked and awe32 is set as my midi device in control panel -> multimedia but duke 3d (i also tested atomic edition) would simply give me an mpu401 not detected error.

I'll test it out again in DOS mode but if i remember correctly you can't use large sound fonts without windows,the one im trying to use is 28Mb.

Thanks for all the input

As a last resort, what are your settings under Windows for your AWE card (I'm now referring to the resource settings under Control Panel, Device Manager & then Sound, Video & Game Controllers)?
Does the MPU-401 port match the setting you chose under the Setup screen for Duke 3D when you selected General MIDI as your Music Device?

PS: My default MIDI device (under Control Panel, Multimedia, MIDI) is Creative Instrument Mapper.
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Re: Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby BeginnerGuy » 2017-10-20 @ 18:44

jesolo wrote:
BeginnerGuy wrote:I have mpu-401 emulation checked and awe32 is set as my midi device in control panel -> multimedia but duke 3d (i also tested atomic edition) would simply give me an mpu401 not detected error.

I'll test it out again in DOS mode but if i remember correctly you can't use large sound fonts without windows,the one im trying to use is 28Mb.

Thanks for all the input

As a last resort, what are your settings under Windows for your AWE card (I'm now referring to the resource settings under Control Panel, Device Manager & then Sound, Video & Game Controllers)?
Does the MPU-401 port match the setting you chose under the Setup screen for Duke 3D when you selected General MIDI as your Music Device?

PS: My default MIDI device (under Control Panel, Multimedia, MIDI) is Creative Instrument Mapper.


The CT3600 shows as two cards:
Creative Advanced Wave Effects Synthesis for AWE 32: (pretty sure I left these default)
i/o Range 0640 - 0643
i/o Range 0A40 - 0A43
i/o Range 0E40 - 0E43

Creative Sound Blaster 16 Plug and Play (I changed it to A240 since my SB pro is on 220)
IR 05
DMA 03
DMA 05
I/O range 0240 - 024F
I/O range 0330 - 0331
I/O range 0388 - 038B

Lastly, autoexec.bat contains:
SET BLASTER=A240 I5 D3 H5 P330 E640 T6
SET MIDI=SYNTH:1 MAP:E MODE:0
SET SOUND=c:\CTSND

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I just changed my default multimedia device to Creative Music Synth [240] but now midi does not use the GM synth from awecp32. Duke3d seems to have stopped the MPU401 error but now it's silent when I test (You should hear the Duke Nukem Them Song - Press any key to end testing).
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Re: Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby BeginnerGuy » 2017-10-20 @ 19:02

appiah4 wrote:
derSammler wrote:You can only select General MIDI in a game if you enable GM emulation with AWEUTIL, and that works for real-mode games only.


My memory tells me that this is not true for AWE64 and I doubt it's true for AWE32, in Win9x there should be a MIDI device for AWE32's MIDI Synth and if you pick that as default, load the SF2 in AWE Control, then pick General MIDI in Duke3D it should work fine in all games.


If I disable MPU-401 emulation in AWECP32, General Midi in DOOM stops working (when launched from within win98 SE). With it enabled however, GM playback is perfect and uses whichever soundfont I have loaded.
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Re: Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby jesolo » 2017-10-20 @ 19:20

BeginnerGuy wrote:
jesolo wrote:
BeginnerGuy wrote:I have mpu-401 emulation checked and awe32 is set as my midi device in control panel -> multimedia but duke 3d (i also tested atomic edition) would simply give me an mpu401 not detected error.

I'll test it out again in DOS mode but if i remember correctly you can't use large sound fonts without windows,the one im trying to use is 28Mb.

Thanks for all the input

As a last resort, what are your settings under Windows for your AWE card (I'm now referring to the resource settings under Control Panel, Device Manager & then Sound, Video & Game Controllers)?
Does the MPU-401 port match the setting you chose under the Setup screen for Duke 3D when you selected General MIDI as your Music Device?

PS: My default MIDI device (under Control Panel, Multimedia, MIDI) is Creative Instrument Mapper.


The CT3600 shows as two cards:
Creative Advanced Wave Effects Synthesis for AWE 32: (pretty sure I left these default)
i/o Range 0640 - 0643
i/o Range 0A40 - 0A43
i/o Range 0E40 - 0E43

Creative Sound Blaster 16 Plug and Play (I changed it to A240 since my SB pro is on 220)
IR 05
DMA 03
DMA 05
I/O range 0240 - 024F
I/O range 0330 - 0331
I/O range 0388 - 038B

Lastly, autoexec.bat contains:
SET BLASTER=A240 I5 D3 H5 P330 E640 T6
SET MIDI=SYNTH:1 MAP:E MODE:0
SET SOUND=c:\CTSND

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I just changed my default multimedia device to Creative Music Synth [240] but now midi does not use the GM synth from awecp32. Duke3d seems to have stopped the MPU401 error but now it's silent when I test (You should hear the Duke Nukem Them Song - Press any key to end testing).

You mentioned in a previous post that you selected another Multimedia Device under the MIDI tab. Was it AWE32 MIDI Out [330] or AWE32 MIDI Synth [640]? Try choosing the AWE32 MIDI Synth [640]. The former is meant if you want to direct your MIDI to an external MIDI device (like a Roland SC-55).
If you choose Creative Instrument Mapper, then you just need to go into the Creative Instrument Mapper (under the same menu as where you will find the AWE Control Panel) and select the correct device to output to.
I think it's perhaps just easier to select AWE32 MIDI Synth [640] as your Multimedia Device.

You mentioned that you also have a Sound Blaster Pro. Is this a real Sound Blaster Pro (CT1330 or CT1600) or a Sound Blaster Pro clone? Most Sound Blaster Pro clones also had a MPU-401 UART MIDI interface, which might conflict with your SB32's MPU-401 UART MIDI port.
Is your Sound Blaster Pro configured at base port 220h, IRQ7 & DMA1?
Some AWE cards also had a jumper on the card to enable the MPU-401 Port. Just make sure it is jumpered correctly in the closed position (usually labelled MFBEN or JP4).
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Re: Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby Stiletto » 2017-10-20 @ 21:45

Moved.
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do the Fandango!" - Queen

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Re: Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby BeginnerGuy » 2017-10-20 @ 22:07

jesolo wrote:You mentioned in a previous post that you selected another Multimedia Device under the MIDI tab. Was it AWE32 MIDI Out [330] or AWE32 MIDI Synth [640]? Try choosing the AWE32 MIDI Synth [640]. The former is meant if you want to direct your MIDI to an external MIDI device (like a Roland SC-55).
If you choose Creative Instrument Mapper, then you just need to go into the Creative Instrument Mapper (under the same menu as where you will find the AWE Control Panel) and select the correct device to output to.
I think it's perhaps just easier to select AWE32 MIDI Synth [640] as your Multimedia Device.

You mentioned that you also have a Sound Blaster Pro. Is this a real Sound Blaster Pro (CT1330 or CT1600) or a Sound Blaster Pro clone? Most Sound Blaster Pro clones also had a MPU-401 UART MIDI interface, which might conflict with your SB32's MPU-401 UART MIDI port.
Is your Sound Blaster Pro configured at base port 220h, IRQ7 & DMA1?
Some AWE cards also had a jumper on the card to enable the MPU-401 Port. Just make sure it is jumpered correctly in the closed position (usually labelled MFBEN or JP4).


My midi output devices are:
Creative Music Synth[240]
SB AWE32 MIDI Synth[640]
SB16 MIDI Out[330].

I never added the CT1600 in windows so that's not a choice. I really only use that card in MS-DOS mode.

I usually have it set to SB AWE32 MIDI Synth, but I've tried them all today to see what happens. SB AWE32 lets my other games like Doom playback using my chosen sound font. It's what I have it set back to now. The only game I've found so far that won't do MIDI playback is Duke3d (hence why I posted this in the games section originally - I thought this was related to the game).

My Sound Blaster Pro 2 is a CT1600 I pulled out of my fathers old computer and it most certainly is 220h, I7 D1 (you wizard you!). I'll have to check the jumpers later when I get more time on the PC, I'm pretty sure I disabled JOY port on the CT1600 (not sure if that also disables it as a MIDI port) because I use my gravis gamepad on the CT3600.

http://pbclub.pwcsite.com/PBInfo/Jumper ... IDE-P.html
This link shows that the CT3600 has a MPU401 jumper, I'm not sure which position it's in, I'll check tonight.

EDIT: Suddenly it works and the music sounds AWESOME! Only problem is I have no idea what I did that got it working... It's been this way since I built the computer, even through a few reformats... Totally odd. I did unplug my gravis gamepad though, I wonder if that was causing fuss.
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Re: Duke 3D (on Win98) GM vs AWE32

Postby jesolo » 2017-10-21 @ 07:51

Glad you got it working.
Just as a matter of interest, what soundfont are you using?
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