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Reply 20 of 51, by ruthan

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RayeR wrote:

Anyone proved it works on some different MB than X58? I mean some Core gen 2 and newer? Maybe some bridge config tweaking would help?

There is Yamaha thread with lots of info..
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide

On modern boards you need some DSDMA.exe TSR utility which need EMS to work, which is not working with Z97.. Could be checked by Yamaha setup utility. I tried 3 versions of Yamaha drivers and needed patched one with to make it work.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 22 of 51, by Asaki

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PARUS wrote:

If you did not get success with Vortex2 yourself it doesn't mean anything for other men because other positive experiense exist.

If it was a cheap card to acquire, I would say "Go ahead and give it a try. It might work."

which PCI sound cards are better for DOS than Vortex2 in your opinion?

I don't know, I gave up on the idea. I have two ISA sound cards for older games, and for newer games, I've been using a DOS box inside of Win98.

I have an old Pentium laptop with integrated ESS audio that works really well. I know most people recommend a specific Yamaha card. I've heard there are certain Creative cards that work well, but I mostly just get frustration from that brand.

ruthan wrote:

Which MB was you are talking about? Which drivers you are used, which setting? Which games were tested?

Mobo is Gigabyte GA-K8NS Pro.

Drivers depend on which game I'm playing. 2041 works better for some games, but 2048 has a lot better features.
Settings: HKR,Config,DisableBusDetection,1,1

Obviously, I can't test any games on the Gigabyte computer.

Because claim that card is not good, not too much compatible and claim i wasnt able to make it working.. means very different things. I would be careful with first one.

I'm not sure what this means in English.

If you're talking about when I mentioned the A3D 2.0 and 3.0 features being nice, those are for Windows games, not DOS.

Reply 23 of 51, by ruthan

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Asaki wrote:

[
Mobo is Gigabyte GA-K8NS Pro.

That board is NVIDIA nForce3 regarding of specs: https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-K8NS-Pro-rev-1x#sp.
Nvidia chipset are probably worst for retro computers, because nvidia just tried to make boards without history, so they probably dont have time to spend on some legacy support.. Because their chipset wasnt any success, they get out of MB business after few years.

Because claim that card is not good, not too much compatible and claim i wasnt able to make it working.. means very different things. I would be careful with first one.

I'm not sure what this means in English.

I only tried to say, that if some card not working with your MB or your skill etc.. that it mean that card is bad in general.. Its very easy to do something wrong.. which block compatibility or get unlucky with some hardware compability (as you probably did because of nforce chipset).

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 24 of 51, by ruthan

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Lspci -v from Z97 board with 2 PCI slots:

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I tested here SB Audigy - only sound in blood setup - music and Y744 -nothing (i could have done something wrong).

Last edited by ruthan on 2018-07-21, 07:07. Edited 1 time in total.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 25 of 51, by Kamerat

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Did you get any error messages in the Blood setup when choosing Sound Blaster or testing the sound playback?

DOS Sound Blaster compatibility: PCI sound cards vs. PCI chipsets
YouTube channel

Reply 26 of 51, by ruthan

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Kamerat wrote:

Did you get any error messages in the Blood setup when choosing Sound Blaster or testing the sound playback?

Here are details about Yamaha 7xx testing.. Music was fine, no sounds.
Re: Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide

SB !Audigy details..
Z97 - nothing, X58 - music is Blood / Duke setup only..
Re: PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers...

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 27 of 51, by Kamerat

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So you got FM music working on the YMF744, that's actually a good indicator that substractive decoding is working. As I understand you have problems loading an expanded memory manager to get the DSDMA TSR working.

I see you're using a Gigabyte motherboard, which model?

DOS Sound Blaster compatibility: PCI sound cards vs. PCI chipsets
YouTube channel

Reply 28 of 51, by ruthan

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Kamerat wrote:

So you got FM music working on the YMF744, that's actually a good indicator that substractive decoding is working. As I understand you have problems loading an expanded memory manager to get the DSDMA TSR working.

I see you're using a Gigabyte motherboard, which model?

I not sure because of my bad memory and too many board, cards, testing.. but its possible, that i didnt try DSDMA.exe for testing at all, because i not understoond how it works. (Its possible that FM could work without DSDMA?) I will retest it once again.
MB: GA-Z97P-D3
https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-Z97P-D3-rev-10#ov

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 29 of 51, by Kamerat

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Yes, FM doesn't use DMA and therefore no need for DSDMA TSR or other methods for emulatig ISA DMA.

DOS Sound Blaster compatibility: PCI sound cards vs. PCI chipsets
YouTube channel

Reply 30 of 51, by ruthan

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Kamerat wrote:

Yes, FM doesn't use DMA and therefore no need for DSDMA TSR or other methods for emulatig ISA DMA.

Ok thanks for info, i will test it once again, its quite possible that even Z97 would work.. I have board on other location so take some time.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 31 of 51, by ruthan

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I that some fun so i tried Yamaha 744 on X99 Gigabyte board with external Asmedia PCI-e to PCI bridge in pure Dos, as expected no go.. Setup cant find Yamaha device, with some controller Audigy works in Win98+ OSes, i didnt try Yamaha in these, because i dont wanted to mess with my settings within them.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 32 of 51, by RayeR

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I belive it might be just due to wrong PCIE2PCI bridge setting that was not properly initialized by BIOS. I think that all PCIE2PCI bridges should have compatible PCI config registers. So when in my case YMF744 worked behind ITE bridge it should also work behind any other bridge. But in my case the bridge is part of the MB (2 PCI slots onboard) and BIOS handle it properly.

Gigabyte GA-P67-DS3-B3, Core i7-2600K @4,5GHz, 8GB DDR3, 128GB SSD, GTX970(GF7900GT), SB Audigy + YMF724F + DreamBlaster combo + LPC2ISA

Reply 33 of 51, by ruthan

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RayeR wrote:

I belive it might be just due to wrong PCIE2PCI bridge setting that was not properly initialized by BIOS.

Question is if we could do something with it? or in such case is board simply not compatible =>dead end and only thing what we could do is try other boards and hope is not like widespread error on intel side which board manufactures just copied/pasted and never fixed.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 34 of 51, by Duffman

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So, I bought one of these

http://eshop.sintech.cn/pcie-express-x1-to-du … able-p-977.html

with the aim of getting an old YMF744 PCI sound card working on a new system.

using RW-Everything I see the config registers.

looking at device and vendor ID reported by windows, it is a texas instruments XIO2001 PCI Express-to-PCI Bridge

looking at the documentation
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/xio2001.pdf

there is an ISA Enable bit - so I want to make sure I enable the right bit

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Reply 35 of 51, by ruthan

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There is similar thread:
PCie-to PCI, PCI to ISA, # of slots multipliers - bridges, risers, backplanes, research, especially for DOS, WIP.

So far nobody won in DOS, in WIndows (98+) i didnt need to enable anything, but dont i remember if tested Yamaha, i tested Creative cards for sure.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 36 of 51, by Kamerat

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ruthan wrote:

So far nobody won in DOS, in WIndows (98+) i didnt need to enable anything, but dont i remember if tested Yamaha, i tested Creative cards for sure.

As for Sound Blaster emulation it's true, but cards running in it's native mode often works fine, like when running Mpxplay (CMI8738) and the native test in setup program (YMF744 in SETUPDS).

One problem when using a bridge is accessing the legacy/ISA ports of a PCI card, but on the YMF744 you can access the Sound Blaster, FM and MPU-401 part on the PCI I/O range. I've tested this using a PCIe-PCI bridge: Sound Blaster get detected in the setup program of Duke Nukem 3D but I get error messages regarding the IRQ of the card.

DOS Sound Blaster compatibility: PCI sound cards vs. PCI chipsets
YouTube channel

Reply 37 of 51, by ruthan

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Kamerat wrote:

As for Sound Blaster emulation it's true, but cards running in it's native mode often works fine, like when running Mpxplay (CMI8738)

I could be wrong, but i think that Mpxplay use some modern code.. so its able to wrong even with RealtekHD or something like that same as Q2DOS,Q1DOS et, so no big deal.

Kamerat wrote:

One problem when using a bridge is accessing the legacy/ISA ports of a PCI card, but on the YMF744 you can access the Sound Blaster, FM and MPU-401 part on the PCI I/O range. I've tested this using a PCIe-PCI bridge: Sound Blaster get detected in the setup program of Duke Nukem 3D but I get error messages regarding the IRQ of the card.

I saw it, but you tested it only up to P965/ICH8 and even there it wasnt working, so if it limited to other chipset, again no big deal, they all have PCI slots too. If would FM working on newer chipset, it would be still good, because it would be much better than OPL2LPT project (there are Z97 / Z170 maybe even Z370 MBs with LPT port).. If FX is not working and guys as Rayer / Tiido saw the thread, its probably dead end.. or solution is not near, unless some small miracle.
Only solution is so far is make that special bridge imagined / described by Tiido (HW mod (reuse IRQ, DMA for some some system device) and some custom make bridge):
Re: PCie-to PCI, PCI to ISA, # of slots multipliers - bridges, risers, backplanes, research, especially for DOS, WIP.

Last edited by ruthan on 2019-07-22, 18:03. Edited 1 time in total.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 38 of 51, by LSS10999

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MPXPlay proved that it's possible to natively operate a sound card under DOS, without being constrained to Sound Blaster standards. It should work regardless of whether you're using a native PCI slot or a PCI slot behind a PCIe-PCI bridge.

Apparently, There's a modified HX-DOS that would support some PCI sound cards before. The author (Ruslan Starodubov) also wrote the PCI sound driver for QuickView Pro as well.

Besides, even though legacy audio may not work under DOS with YMF7x4 audio controllers for a given chipset, the SETUPDS.EXE also seems to have some code meant to natively operate the card (the "Native 16-bit Sound" test option worked even on unsupported chipsets as far as I could remember).

So generally speaking... sound cards can work under DOS if one knows how to write code to properly initialize and operate them (which is what device drivers do in other operating systems). The hard part is how to make it interoperable with Sound Blaster standards (which DOS games rely on).

Reply 39 of 51, by Duffman

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could this help with PCI sound cards in DOS?

ISA enable.This bit modifies the response by the bridge to ISA I/O addresses.This applies only to I/O addresses that are enabled by the I/O base and I/O limit registers and are in the first 64 KB of PCI I/O address space (0000 0000h to 0000 FFFFh). If this bit is set, then the bridge blocks any forwarding from primary to secondary of I/O transactions addressing the last 768 bytes in each 1-KB block. In the opposite direction (secondary to primary), I/O transactions are forwarded if they address the last 768 bytes in each 1K block.
0 = Forward downstream all I/O addresses in the address range defined by the I/O base and I/O limit registers (default)
1 = Forward upstream ISA I/O addresses in the address range defined by the I/O base and I/O limit registers that are in the first 64 KB of PCI I/O address space (top 768 bytes of each 1-KB block)

MB: ASRock B550 Steel Legend
CPU: Ryzen 9 5950X
RAM: Corsair 64GB Kit (4x16GB) DDR4 Veng LPX C18 4000MHz
SSDs: 2x Crucial MX500 1TB SATA + 1x Samsung 980 (non-pro) 1TB NVMe SSD
OSs: Win 11 Pro (NVMe) + WinXP Pro SP3 (SATA)
GPU: RTX2070 (11) GT730 (XP)