VOGONS


First post, by static-

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Hi all !

I'm wondering if you'd like to help me think through some sound card options for my SS7 K6-3+ retro boxen, aimed at playing a large range of DOS/WIN98 games.

I have a SS7 motherboard with:
* 2x ISA slots
* 5x PCI slots

I have the following sound card options
* ISA Resound OPL3
* ISA SB16 with genuine OPL (noisy signal)
* ISA HardMPU
* ISA AW64 Gold (has no hanging bug, clean signal)
* PCI SB Live
* PCI SB Audigy 2 ZS

I would say my audio priorities are
1) OPL2/3
2) MIDI for MT32/SC55 with no hanging note bug and Intelligent mode support
3) Digital Audio, cleanest possible signal/sound

Here are some options I'm considering

[ Option 1 ] -- Resound OPL3 + AWE64 (w/ SoftMPU) + Audigy 2 ZS
This gives the cleanest OPL3 sound, as well as no hanging bug (AWE64). However without the HardMPU for intelligent mode, SoftMPU must be used which forces EMS requirement and tiny 8K ram. I worry some games will not work in this configuration (like Ultima7, although it doesn't need Intelligent MPU).

[ Option 2 ] -- Resound OPL3 + HardMPU + Audigy 2 ZS
Here, I get the best Intelligent MPU support, but lose the AWE64 ISA for digital audio for DOS... however I'm wondering if I could use the Audigy 2 ZS in dos to provide a (potentially?) cleaner sound than the AWE64 gold? I've read a patch can be loaded that allows Audigy 2 to use the Audigy 1 DOS drivers.

[ Option 3 ] -- SB16 + HardMPU + Audigy 2 ZS
This keeps geniune OPL and Intelligent MPU, but the SB16 for DOS is noisier than the AWE64 for audio.

[ Option 4 ] -- ???

Some questions I have:
1) Does the Live! have better DOS drivers/support than the Audigy 2 ZS?
2) Can I expect any game incompatibilities for using PCI live/audigy card in DOS?
3) Are there other ISA or PCI cards that I don't own that you'd think could work better?

Please let me know if you have any thoughts or experience to share! My current vote would probably be option #1.. losing the HardMPU and sticking to SoftMPU

Cheers!

Reply 1 of 8, by gdjacobs

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1) I don't think so. Aren't the Audigy 2 DOS drivers unofficially derived from Audigy/Live drivers? Aside from drivers perhaps being unofficial, I think performance and compatibility should be very close.
2) Yes. Any game that's incompatible with EMM386 won't work.
3) Perhaps a Vibra S/OPL3 card, like a CT28xx. Maybe an Opti or CS4232 based clone with genuine Yamaha FM chip or illegal 100% clone. You need to evaluate if SB Pro support is important for you.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 3 of 8, by gdjacobs

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Indeed that's a good option (although a little bit pricier), but the question about SB Pro support still stands.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 4 of 8, by static-

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Ohh.. I didn't realize the Live/Audigy DOS drivers required EMM386 to work. I hadn't experimented with them yet.. This will certainly be problematic.

I actually also have an ISA riser card which gives 3x 16bit ISA, but I have no idea how I'd ever get that to work in a modern case, as the cards would stick out sideways. ( Looks like this https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/cZYAAOSwSZFZ1xB4/s-l300.jpg ). Found one randomly on local kijiji for cheap. I think that would let me do a 3 ISA combo.

The AWE32 with SPDIF is an interesting choice! I didn't even know that was possible. I'll have to look into this some more. I'm not sure how I would mix it.. my current mixer is just a typical one with 1/4in analog audio jacks.

When you ask how important SBPro is, do you mean OPL2/3? Or something specific to SBPro? I'd say it's a must for this build.

Thanks for your ideas guys.

Reply 5 of 8, by gdjacobs

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static- wrote:
Ohh.. I didn't realize the Live/Audigy DOS drivers required EMM386 to work. I hadn't experimented with them yet.. This will cer […]
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Ohh.. I didn't realize the Live/Audigy DOS drivers required EMM386 to work. I hadn't experimented with them yet.. This will certainly be problematic.

I actually also have an ISA riser card which gives 3x 16bit ISA, but I have no idea how I'd ever get that to work in a modern case, as the cards would stick out sideways. ( Looks like this https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/cZYAAOSwSZFZ1xB4/s-l300.jpg ). Found one randomly on local kijiji for cheap. I think that would let me do a 3 ISA combo.

The AWE32 with SPDIF is an interesting choice! I didn't even know that was possible. I'll have to look into this some more. I'm not sure how I would mix it.. my current mixer is just a typical one with 1/4in analog audio jacks.

When you ask how important SBPro is, do you mean OPL2/3? Or something specific to SBPro? I'd say it's a must for this build.

Thanks for your ideas guys.

Please be aware that SPDIF doesn't output all audio channels on AWE32 cards. CD audio and audio from the wavetable header are both mixed after the point where SPDIF is extracted as is OPL3 on some cards.

Regarding SB Pro support, these are murky waters, but I'll borrow a summary from Hierophant (the Nerdly Pleasures blog).

Great Hierophant wrote:
In short : […]
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In short :

For FM Stereo, an SB16 is compatible with the SB Pro 2.0
For Mixer Stereo, an SB16 is compatible with the SB Pro 1.0 & 2.0
For DSP Stereo, an SB16 is compatible with nothing.

Realistically, the impact of this is quite small. Most games supporting SB Pro DSP stereo sound, such as X-Wing and TIE Fighter, also support SB16. Some titles have an SB Pro option but only output mono sound. There's a lot on confusion of this and few answers. Suffice it to say if this problem is more than theoretical, it's fairly rare, but the potential exists for incompatibility.

Conversely, the benefit of SB16 44.1khz 16 bit stereo audio is also quite small. Most games with SB16 support use the same samples and mix at the same sample rate and bit depth as they would in SB Pro mode. However, there are a few titles that do benefit from the capabilities of the SB16 cards. As well, there are a handful of games that natively support the EMU 8k (AWE) synthesizer engine with uploaded custom instruments. In both cases, the titles that feature this support are from around 1995 or later, so games that are from earlier generally won't benefit from the SB16 or AWE cards.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 6 of 8, by static-

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Thank you for the info! My Resound 3 arrived, I'm currently running with [ Option 1 ] -- Resound OPL3 + AWE64 (w/ SoftMPU) + Audigy 2 ZS

I haven't run into any Intelligent MT-32 game that doesn't work with EMM386+SoftMPU, so I think the HardMPU will have to go into another computer 😀 I can always swap it in i I want to play a game that needs it.

Reply 7 of 8, by fitzpatr

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That is probably where I would land in your shoes. The resound is optimal as an FM only supplement to a card with an OPL3 clone.

My SS7 build uses an SB Pro 2 and MPU-401AT in the ISA slots, and an Audigy 2ZS in PCI for Windows use.

MT-32 Old, CM-32L, CM-500, SC-55mkII, SC-88Pro, SC-D70, FB-01, MU2000EX
K6-III+/450/GA-5AX/G400 Max/Voodoo2 SLI/CT1750/MPU-401AT/Audigy 2ZS
486 Build