VOGONS


First post, by walterg74

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

So I’m looking to get a soundcard for a P100 build ( maybe more than one to test or for other builds too). The main goal for now will be DOS stuff.

I was convinced I wanted a Sound Blaster until I read some and saw thing like the nasty bugs, or how some other cards may have better quality, etc.

Reading about Yamaha, ESS, Crystal, and trying to understand if this is just the main chip itself or also the brand or something else, as well as what it means when they say it doesn’t have “real” OPL, etc. Specially because I see some cards that for example will have a Crystal chip but also a Yamaha 262 chip as well.

So, kind of overwhelmed a bit. Granted, some/most of the cards I am seeing I can get locally for between$5-$8, so I don’t mind buying a few and trying them out even, but I would like to understand...

These are some I can get:

D581C6E0-B0CE-4605-989E-3931A0551876.jpeg
Filename
D581C6E0-B0CE-4605-989E-3931A0551876.jpeg
File size
833.33 KiB
Views
1109 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception
928DA224-A0C1-4EA2-B017-FAE02F30E914.jpeg
Filename
928DA224-A0C1-4EA2-B017-FAE02F30E914.jpeg
File size
667.46 KiB
Views
1109 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception
978A95EC-0B78-4CBE-95F2-580AA27A74C8.jpeg
Filename
978A95EC-0B78-4CBE-95F2-580AA27A74C8.jpeg
File size
819.3 KiB
Views
1109 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception
1EC78E80-EBAC-41DD-923D-01A15A22983C.jpeg
Filename
1EC78E80-EBAC-41DD-923D-01A15A22983C.jpeg
File size
891.03 KiB
Views
1109 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception
1A0C9943-0418-4EBE-812A-4FC2C3FC785D.jpeg
Filename
1A0C9943-0418-4EBE-812A-4FC2C3FC785D.jpeg
File size
1 MiB
Views
1109 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

Reply 1 of 20, by jheronimus

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

There are typically 4 main points you need to consider when buying a soundcard:

1) OPL3 implementation

If you plan to use OPL3/AdLib standard for music, then you need to look at the way your card implements it. Creative cards have three options: a real Yamaha chip (it's usually visible on the board), a CT1747 (also written on the chip itself, has OPL3 integrated) and CQM (basically what you get when there are no Yamaha chips on the cards). First two are nice, while CQM can sometimes sound a bit off, but it's pretty subtle and subjective. Here's a video that demonstrates the differences.

Non-Creative cards can have Yamaha OPL3 chips, too, but more often they have a clone chip of some sort. ESS has ESFM which is considered to be the best non-Yamaha implementation of OPL3. But basically the easiest way is to get any cheap Yamaha card — they will have true OPL3, of course. Crystal-based cards, for example, have worse OPL3 implementation.

2) Sound quality

It's mostly about how noisy the card is. This is where it gets complicated with Creative cards. The newer the card is, the cleaner the sound will be, but the less likely it will have OPL3 and bug-free MIDI. For example, Vibra and AWE64 cards sound pretty clean, but usually they have only CQM. There are exceptions — for example, some Vibra CT2940s have OPL3 chips.

With older cards you can sometimes mess around with mixer settings to get better sound. Basically quality loss appears when the card tries to amplify the sound by itself, so the quieter the sound output is, the less noisy it gets. You just pass the sound to powered speakers that amplify the sound themselves.

ESS and Yamaha cards are often considered to have nice sound quality.

3) Hanging note/MIDI bugs

This is mostly an issue with Creative cards. It goes like this — if you want to use a MIDI device (like a Waveblaster addon or an external MIDI unit like Roland SC-55), some notes might get stuck. Here is a proper explanation. This is mostly a non-issue with non-Creative cards. Some people actually use two soundcards for that reason — an original SoundBlaster 16 and a clone that will drive MIDI. Besides, there are standalone MIDI cards like Yamaha SW60XG, Turtle Beach Maui and Roland SCC-1 that don't use your SoundBlaster for accepting MIDI commands.

Again, this is only an issue if you want to get MIDI/Wavetable music. You don't need to bother with this if all you need is AdLib/OPL3

4) SB compatibility

There are actually two main SoundBlaster standards: SoundBlaster Pro and SoundBlaster 16. SB16 devices play 16-bit sound samples as opposed to 8-bit and get "CD-quality audio". Most clones are SB Pro compatible. Usually people argue that most DOS games actually don't use 16-bit samples, but there are noteable exceptions. Here is an attempt to list those exceptions.

Here is my personal favourite list of soundcards:

1) SB16 CT2230 — relatively clean output, true OPL3, few MIDI bugs;
2) SB16 Vibra CT2940 w/OPL3 — really clean output, true OPL3, but MIDI is buggy;
3) Yamaha YMF-based (OPL3-SAx) cards (like YMF-718). Nice sound quality, true OPL3, drivers come with a half-decent software MIDI synthesizer;
4) ESS AudioDrive — dead simple DOS drivers, nice sound quality, decent OPL3;
5) AWE64/SoundBlaster 32 — best sound quality, half-decent wavetable (hard to expand, though), easy to find (the Value edition, at least), no MIDI bugs. CQM only, though.

Furthermore, here is a great explanation of different SoundBlaster 16 revisions. Here is an explanation of AWE32/AWE64 options.

MR BIOS catalog
Unicore catalog

Reply 3 of 20, by tpowell.ca

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

Favorites but not in order:

AWE32 CT2760v3 <-- for later games (mid-late 90s) and has a true OPL3 and can handle 28MB of soundfonts using 30pin simms
SBPro2 <-- because it set a standard in the mid-90s.
ESS688 <-- best SoundBlaster Pro compatibility I've seen with VERY clean sound and the best lowpass filter implementation I've seen in 8bit soundcards and has a true OPL3.
AWE64 Gold <-- because it looks good in a displaycase and has digital output (although with very limited support).
Gravis Ultrasound (classic and Pnp) <-- because, if used properly in games (exceedingly rare), it sounds phenomenal and alleviates CPU load. Used extensively in the demo scene.

  • Merlin: MS-4144, AMD5x86-160 32MB, 16GB CF, ZIP100, Orpheus, GUS, S3 VirgeGX 2MB
    Tesla: GA-6BXC, VIA C3 Ezra-T, 256MB, 120GB SATA, YMF744, GUSpnp, Quadro2
    Newton: K6XV3+/66, AMD K6-III+500, 256MB, 32GB SSD, AWE32, Voodoo3

Reply 4 of 20, by walterg74

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
jheronimus wrote:
There are typically 4 main points you need to consider when buying a soundcard: […]
Show full quote

There are typically 4 main points you need to consider when buying a soundcard:

1) OPL3 implementation

If you plan to use OPL3/AdLib standard for music, then you need to look at the way your card implements it. Creative cards have three options: a real Yamaha chip (it's usually visible on the board), a CT1747 (also written on the chip itself, has OPL3 integrated) and CQM (basically what you get when there are no Yamaha chips on the cards). First two are nice, while CQM can sometimes sound a bit off, but it's pretty subtle and subjective. Here's a video that demonstrates the differences.

Non-Creative cards can have Yamaha OPL3 chips, too, but more often they have a clone chip of some sort. ESS has ESFM which is considered to be the best non-Yamaha implementation of OPL3. But basically the easiest way is to get any cheap Yamaha card — they will have true OPL3, of course. Crystal-based cards, for example, have worse OPL3 implementation.

2) Sound quality

It's mostly about how noisy the card is. This is where it gets complicated with Creative cards. The newer the card is, the cleaner the sound will be, but the less likely it will have OPL3 and bug-free MIDI. For example, Vibra and AWE64 cards sound pretty clean, but usually they have only CQM. There are exceptions — for example, some Vibra CT2940s have OPL3 chips.

With older cards you can sometimes mess around with mixer settings to get better sound. Basically quality loss appears when the card tries to amplify the sound by itself, so the quieter the sound output is, the less noisy it gets. You just pass the sound to powered speakers that amplify the sound themselves.

ESS and Yamaha cards are often considered to have nice sound quality.

3) Hanging note/MIDI bugs

This is mostly an issue with Creative cards. It goes like this — if you want to use a MIDI device (like a Waveblaster addon or an external MIDI unit like Roland SC-55), some notes might get stuck. Here is a proper explanation. This is mostly a non-issue with non-Creative cards. Some people actually use two soundcards for that reason — an original SoundBlaster 16 and a clone that will drive MIDI. Besides, there are standalone MIDI cards like Yamaha SW60XG, Turtle Beach Maui and Roland SCC-1 that don't use your SoundBlaster for accepting MIDI commands.

Again, this is only an issue if you want to get MIDI/Wavetable music. You don't need to bother with this if all you need is AdLib/OPL3

4) SB compatibility

There are actually two main SoundBlaster standards: SoundBlaster Pro and SoundBlaster 16. SB16 devices play 16-bit sound samples as opposed to 8-bit and get "CD-quality audio". Most clones are SB Pro compatible. Usually people argue that most DOS games actually don't use 16-bit samples, but there are noteable exceptions. Here is an attempt to list those exceptions.

Here is my personal favourite list of soundcards:

1) SB16 CT2230 — relatively clean output, true OPL3, few MIDI bugs;
2) SB16 Vibra CT2940 w/OPL3 — really clean output, true OPL3, but MIDI is buggy;
3) Yamaha YMF-based (OPL3-SAx) cards (like YMF-718). Nice sound quality, true OPL3, drivers come with a half-decent software MIDI synthesizer;
4) ESS AudioDrive — dead simple DOS drivers, nice sound quality, decent OPL3;
5) AWE64/SoundBlaster 32 — best sound quality, half-decent wavetable (hard to expand, though), easy to find (the Value edition, at least), no MIDI bugs. CQM only, though.

Furthermore, here is a great explanation of different SoundBlaster 16 revisions. Here is an explanation of AWE32/AWE64 options.

Thanks for the explanation! I will make sure to go read the links you provided too.

One thing I don’t get. You said: “Crystal-based cards, for example, have worse OPL3 implementation“. But the sound card I see/mentioned (not sure if you looked at my pics) are crystal based but have the yamaha fm chip tooas the “real” Yamaha one??

Reply 5 of 20, by jheronimus

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

One thing I don’t get. You said: “Crystal-based cards, for example, have worse OPL3 implementation“. But the sound card I see/mentioned (not sure if you looked at my pics) are crystal based but have the yamaha fm chip tooas the “real” Yamaha one??

Yes, it does, and it's a fairly cool card by itself (seems to be based on Media Vision Pro Audio Spectrum). I was talking about cheaper cards that don't have separate OPL3 chips like this:

crystal-4325-isa-sound-card-pt-2318-1-3.27__37185.1489957438.jpg
Filename
crystal-4325-isa-sound-card-pt-2318-1-3.27__37185.1489957438.jpg
File size
31.73 KiB
Views
1058 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

MR BIOS catalog
Unicore catalog

Reply 6 of 20, by walterg74

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
jheronimus wrote:

One thing I don’t get. You said: “Crystal-based cards, for example, have worse OPL3 implementation“. But the sound card I see/mentioned (not sure if you looked at my pics) are crystal based but have the yamaha fm chip tooas the “real” Yamaha one??

Yes, it does, and it's a fairly cool card by itself (seems to be based on Media Vision Pro Audio Spectrum). I was talking about cheaper cards that don't have separate OPL3 chips like this:

crystal-4325-isa-sound-card-pt-2318-1-3.27__37185.1489957438.jpg

Ah ok got it. So in the case of the cards I added pics of above they should all be fine in that regard, being they all have separate (and yamaha) chips?

Reply 7 of 20, by jheronimus

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Ah ok got it. So in the case of the cards I added pics of above they should all be fine in that regard, being they all have separate (and yamaha) chips?

Yes

MR BIOS catalog
Unicore catalog

Reply 8 of 20, by walterg74

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
jheronimus wrote:

One thing I don’t get. You said: “Crystal-based cards, for example, have worse OPL3 implementation“. But the sound card I see/mentioned (not sure if you looked at my pics) are crystal based but have the yamaha fm chip tooas the “real” Yamaha one??

Yes, it does, and it's a fairly cool card by itself (seems to be based on Media Vision Pro Audio Spectrum). I was talking about cheaper cards that don't have separate OPL3 chips like this:

The attachment crystal-4325-isa-sound-card-pt-2318-1-3.27__37185.1489957438.jpg is no longer available

Ok also, meanwhile 2 cards I had ordered just arrived. Jut $6 each so what the heck for testing them out...

Would this then be an ESS1868 with it’s own implementation of both sound and fm?

26045516-1DF3-4162-ADE8-86B46A3F2CA9.jpeg
Filename
26045516-1DF3-4162-ADE8-86B46A3F2CA9.jpeg
File size
1.04 MiB
Views
1054 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

And the other is a Genius brand, but would it be correct to say that this is one of the highly
Regarded Yamahas?

13CF1720-91C4-44B4-9B78-E37AFFEC9E79.jpeg
Filename
13CF1720-91C4-44B4-9B78-E37AFFEC9E79.jpeg
File size
1.12 MiB
Views
1054 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception
BAE34EF8-D167-49FA-ACCC-522DEF5E3DBD.jpeg
Filename
BAE34EF8-D167-49FA-ACCC-522DEF5E3DBD.jpeg
File size
867.61 KiB
Views
1054 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

(And in this case, do the Yamaha’s also integrate both real OPL3 and sound into the 719 chip?)

Reply 9 of 20, by Scali

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Crystal makes various chips, including DAC/ADC chips.
So it is quite possible to find SoundBlaster clones that use a Crystal DAC/ADC, but also a real Yamaha OPL3 chip. I believe the Aztech card above is an example of this.

I also want to add a point regarding MIDI:
The 'standard' MIDI interface is the Roland MPU-401. Most sound cards are either not compatible with the MPU-401 at all (Sound Blaster Pro and earlier Creative cards for example, and IBM Music Feature Card), or only support the 'dumb'/UART mode of the MPU-401.
So if you want to use a MIDI synthesizer/module, such as an MT-32/Sound Canvas, you may be better off with either a real Roland MPU-401, or a proper clone such as the Music Quest (or keropi's clone of it, see elsewhere on this forum).

http://scalibq.wordpress.com/just-keeping-it- … ro-programming/

Reply 10 of 20, by jheronimus

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
walterg74 wrote:
Would this then be an ESS1868 with it’s own implementation of both sound and fm? […]
Show full quote

Would this then be an ESS1868 with it’s own implementation of both sound and fm?

And the other is a Genius brand, but would it be correct to say that this is one of the highly
Regarded Yamahas?

(And in this case, do the Yamaha’s also integrate both real OPL3 and sound into the 719 chip?)

Yes, yes and yes)

MR BIOS catalog
Unicore catalog

Reply 12 of 20, by walterg74

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
jheronimus wrote:
walterg74 wrote:
Would this then be an ESS1868 with it’s own implementation of both sound and fm? […]
Show full quote

Would this then be an ESS1868 with it’s own implementation of both sound and fm?

And the other is a Genius brand, but would it be correct to say that this is one of the highly
Regarded Yamahas?

(And in this case, do the Yamaha’s also integrate both real OPL3 and sound into the 719 chip?)

Yes, yes and yes)

🤣, thanks!

Might also get a few more of the ones from the pics. I also have a chance to get a SB16, model Ct-2840, which I believe avoids the main bug, having the creative chipset? Would it be worth it? It’s more expensive than the others at around $25

Reply 14 of 20, by lvader

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

I look for 4 things in sound cards, true OPL FM synth, clean digital sound, Roland LA midi and GM midi. You will struggle to do all with 1 sound card so using a couple of sound cards or more might be the way to go. I went with 4 sound cards.

Reply 15 of 20, by gdjacobs

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

All those cards look to be worth having although the Opti card should only be picked up if it's cheap.

The last one appears to be a Multiwave Audiowave 16 AISP. The Mediavision Thunderboard chipset will provide Sound Blaster 2.0 compatibility (not pro) and it also appears to support Windows Sound System via the CS4231 codec. My guess is that no drivers are required. Very strange and interesting card.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 16 of 20, by walterg74

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
gdjacobs wrote:

All those cards look to be worth having although the Opti card should only be picked up if it's cheap.

The last one appears to be a Multiwave Audiowave 16 AISP. The Mediavision Thunderboard chipset will provide Sound Blaster 2.0 compatibility (not pro) and it also appears to support Windows Sound System via the CS4231 codec. My guess is that no drivers are required. Very strange and interesting card.

Yeah, it also has, if you can make it out, a Yamaha 262 chip...

Reply 17 of 20, by chinny22

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

that was a real good summary jheronimus!
When I first got back into old PC's I was lost with all the different sound formats as well.
Young me simply selected SB16 whenever possible thinking it was the best option not counting the AWE32 which I didn't have, ah, blissful ignorance

Reply 18 of 20, by LunarG

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

That Aztech card looks a lot like the Aztech Sound Galaxy "Something Something-else" (Washington 16 perhaps? Can't remember) that I had back in the days. It was a somewhat weird card. In most games it would work as a SB Pro, in a few it would work as SB 16, although apparently hardly any "SB Clone" cards would do that. It had slightly noisy output imho, but I can't remember any games where it wouldn't work in one way or another. I remember it doing really well in a review back in the days, but I can't remember what the competing cards were, as I only read that review in a magazine back in the early 90's.

WinXP : PIII 1.4GHz, 512MB RAM, 73GB SCSI HDD, Matrox Parhelia, SB Audigy 2.
Win98se : K6-3+ 500MHz, 256MB RAM, 80GB HDD, Matrox Millennium G400 MAX, Voodoo 2, SW1000XG.
DOS6.22 : Intel DX4, 64MB RAM, 1.6GB HDD, Diamond Stealth64 DRAM, GUS 1MB, SB16.

Reply 19 of 20, by walterg74

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
LunarG wrote:

That Aztech card looks a lot like the Aztech Sound Galaxy "Something Something-else" (Washington 16 perhaps? Can't remember) that I had back in the days. It was a somewhat weird card. In most games it would work as a SB Pro, in a few it would work as SB 16, although apparently hardly any "SB Clone" cards would do that. It had slightly noisy output imho, but I can't remember any games where it wouldn't work in one way or another. I remember it doing really well in a review back in the days, but I can't remember what the competing cards were, as I only read that review in a magazine back in the early 90's.

The guys lists it as: “Sound Galaxy Pro 16”...