dr_st wrote:

Flare wrote:

I plan to run both DOS 6.22 and Windows 98SE on the system, so I'll need the card to have drivers for both and still sound good.

As I always ask - why do you want to use DOS 6.22? Do you plan to run Windows 3.11?

For running games in pure DOS, just use the pure DOS mode of Windows 98 SE.

No, I use DOSSHELL for navigating in 6.22.

I've tried 98 SE's DOS mode and run into problems with drivers not working and some games don't like FAT32 when installing. Less hassle for me to simply switch out the CF card in my IDE adapter on the front of the case.

dr_st wrote:

firage wrote:

Basically, out of EAX, A3D and OPL FM, you pick one. EAX and A3D cards can do DOS, although not optimally.

I think it may be worth it to use two cards then - one for maximum DOS compatibility, one for Windows (with your choice of EAX or A3D).

Looking into those last two, they seem to be surround-related. I only need stereo, should I focus more on MIDI and FM?

Flare wrote:

No, I use DOSSHELL for navigating in 6.22.

I'd suggest Norton Commander myself, but that's me. 😀

Flare wrote:

I've tried 98 SE's DOS mode and run into problems with drivers not working and some games don't like FAT32 when installing.

Would be interested to know which drivers do not work and which games do not like FAT32 (probably seeing too much free space as not enough?). Information like this can be useful. I personally have not encountered anything meaningful that did not work, but I have been using FAT16 partitions for DOS games even when using Win98 SE.

Flare wrote:

Less hassle for me to simply switch out the CF card in my IDE adapter on the front of the case.

That's true for sure.

dr_st wrote:

Looking into those last two, they seem to be surround-related. I only need stereo, should I focus more on MIDI and FM?

EAX - not only surround. It's a bunch of general audio processing extensions, popular in the ear of Windows 9x and XP games.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_Audio_Extensions

Flare wrote:

dr_st wrote:

firage wrote:

Basically, out of EAX, A3D and OPL FM, you pick one. EAX and A3D cards can do DOS, although not optimally.

I think it may be worth it to use two cards then - one for maximum DOS compatibility, one for Windows (with your choice of EAX or A3D).

Looking into those last two, they seem to be surround-related. I only need stereo, should I focus more on MIDI and FM?

EAX is an effects engine, like how things sound different in a cathedral vs a small room.

A3D simulates surround through stereo headphones or speakers, if you only have stereo it is actually what you want.

MIDI's golden age was the late 80s and early 90s, and from Windows 95 you could get by without it. And most Windows sound cards do Midi really well, using Soundfonts in main memory - but they may not work well for DOS games. Also, gradually into the Windows era until today, games transitioned from FM to PCM sound (which is why soundcards have died out), and things like effects engines (DSPs that change existing sound samples) and surround processors became the core value of sound cards.

You sound like you are more focused on DOS gaming - which is strange as you locked yourself into a system without an ISA slot. If you had one, I would suggest an AWE64 which does great native DOS sound, and has perfect Win98 support.

appiah4 wrote:

cyclone3d wrote:

appiah4 wrote:

The moment you say DOS and PCI I think the best option is a good ESS Solo-1 card like the Terrated 128i. Everything else has crappy OPL3 emulation.

The Yamaha cards have genuine OPL3 built in.

They also have worse compatibility with DOS games on pretty much any PCI bus out there.

The SOLO-1 just works, and ESFM is a very accurate OPL3 substitute.

The Solo-1 isn't perfect. All the same, it's a shame this board doesn't have a PC/PCI header or a YMF PCI card would be a no brainer.

I'd probably pick up a few different cards. A Solo 1, a YMF724/744/754, a Vortex 2 card (if you find one for a good price), and an Audigy 2. Maybe also an ALS4000 as a dark horse contender. You'd be covered pretty well for DOS and Win9x, plus most of the cards are fairly inexpensive.

squiggly wrote:

You sound like you are more focused on DOS gaming - which is strange as you locked yourself into a system without an ISA slot. If you had one, I would suggest an AWE64 which does great native DOS sound, and has perfect Win98 support.

You may be right there, most of the games I want to play ARE older ones from my childhood.

And Ironically I DID track down an ITX board with an ISA slot, but nobody's selling it anymore: http://www.commell.com.tw/Product/SBC/LV-650.htm

gdjacobs wrote:

t's a shame this board doesn't have a PC/PCI header or a YMF PCI card would be a no brainer.

I'd probably pick up a few different cards. A Solo 1, a YMF724/744/754, a Vortex 2 card (if you find one for a good price), and an Audigy 2. Maybe also an ALS4000 as a dark horse contender. You'd be covered pretty well for DOS and Win9x, plus most of the cards are fairly inexpensive.

My board has a DIO header, could I use that to somehow connect a PC/PCI cable?

And switching the sound card each time I want to play a certain game doesn't sound practical, perhaps I should just use DOSBOX for the more recent titles?

Flare wrote:

gdjacobs wrote:

t's a shame this board doesn't have a PC/PCI header or a YMF PCI card would be a no brainer.

I'd probably pick up a few different cards. A Solo 1, a YMF724/744/754, a Vortex 2 card (if you find one for a good price), and an Audigy 2. Maybe also an ALS4000 as a dark horse contender. You'd be covered pretty well for DOS and Win9x, plus most of the cards are fairly inexpensive.

My board has a DIO header, could I use that to somehow connect a PC/PCI cable?

Nope.

Flare wrote:

And switching the sound card each time I want to play a certain game doesn't sound practical, perhaps I should just use DOSBOX for the more recent titles?

Not what I was thinking (or at least, not entirely).

There's nothing wrong with DOSBox. With the right version or patches applied, it can come very close to the performance and fidelity of true period hardware. What real hardware offers is the chance to experiment and see what the various combinations of hardware of the past looked like, sounded like, and felt like while gaming.

I don't recommend swapping cards all the time, but having multiple options does give you the opportunity of experimenting to find the card which best suits your motherboard and the types of games you want to play. Plus, if you want to try out a bunch of EAX or A3D games in Windows, you can swap in a Vortex 2 or Audigy card and see how they stack up for 3d audio.

Flare wrote:

I'm using an Axiomtek SBC86807 2.0 board.

Manual: http://www.axiomtek.com/Download/Download/SBC … 07/SBC86807.pdf.

With ICH based Intel chipsets you're very limited on PCI sound cards that works in DOS, most of those who works require a TSR. The Forté Media FM801-AU is one exception, but it got issues getting the sample rate right in some older DOS games. Do you have any clue about what games you're going to play under DOS?

Kamerat, tell please what is necessary for Trident 4DWave. Is it TSR? I have Aztech-288 and would like to try get SB16 in pure DOS via PC/PCI, chipset is ICH2 (Intel D850MV). Thank you!

PARUS wrote:

Kamerat, tell please what is necessary for Trident 4DWave. Is it TSR? I have Aztech-288 and would like to try get SB16 in pure DOS via PC/PCI, chipset is ICH2 (Intel D850MV). Thank you!

It needs to be initialized by "WAVEINIT.EXE /P /V" for PC/PCI support. The "WAVETSR.COM" TSR is used for Wavetable support and to set the PCM sampling rate of the card automatically (and perhaps IRQ emulation?). You can alter the sampling rate manually with the "T4DW.EXE" utility included in this archive from this site.

Kamerat wrote:

Flare wrote:

I'm using an Axiomtek SBC86807 2.0 board.

Manual: http://www.axiomtek.com/Download/Download/SBC … 07/SBC86807.pdf.

Do you have any clue about what games you're going to play under DOS?

Not fully sure, it would be nice to play Number Munchers/Super Munchers and Troggle Trouble Math by MECC to relive the old days.

A friend of mine also gave me Metal & Lace which is giving me the most sound issues through my Ensoniq card. (Don't judge me, it was free)

Thanks a lot Kamerat! Later I'll try it. I bought 4DWave especially for solder 5-pin connector and test it on SB Link bus.

I think you're main expert about PCI DOS sound on this site and I have a few questions if you don't mind.

1) I have soldered 5 pins on my D850MV motherboard and found that SIRQ line hasn't resistor soldered, only DMA line has it. And Yamaha's SETUPDS doesn't let me choose SIRQ. It is PCI IRQ only available. Can I solder resistor on SIRQ line on mobo and get this option? If yes what value of resistance?
2) Is it true that Trident's wavetable connector can't work in pure DOS?
3) Also I want to see what would happened if I connect YMF and Trident to PC/PCI connector together for getting SB+FM+SB16 compatibility. Yamaha will occupy 220/5/1 (or 220/7/1) and what about Trident? Can it work with 240/9/0/5 or 240/5/3/6 for example? I explain my wish: I found that SB16 compatible cards don't work well in SB/SBpro mode. "Clean SBpro" compatible cards do it usually much better. And in my ISA sound system I always use separately SBpro and SB16 compatible cards. Resources are 220/7/1 and 240/5/0/5. I want to try repeat it with two PCI cards on one SB Link bus.

Thank you in advance!

Well I installed one of these today: https://www.ebay.com/itm/282939406963

The music sounds great, but there's no voices in Metal & Lace. (I assume because the motherboard lacks Distributed DMA?)

Flare wrote:

Well I installed one of these today: https://www.ebay.com/itm/282939406963

The music sounds great, but there's no voices in Metal & Lace. (I assume because the motherboard lacks Distributed DMA?)

Flare, ICH4 has DDMA!

PARUS wrote:

ICH4 bridge supports DDMA. Of course BIOS should also realize this chipset feasibility.

Remember? What about BIOS on your motherboard?

The music on YMF cards always sounds on any motherboard, often even without driver. And voice sometimes gets a problem.

PARUS wrote:

In fact Yamaha is very unpredictable even on mobos with DDMA.

Remember? Try to use patched SETUPDS for ICH4.

Congratulations! You got a perfect card! Now if you wish small case I advise leave this motherboard and find this mATX board:

Then solder 5-pin connectors on motherboard and on soundcard. It just will work. You can use very small case like this for example:
https://www.ple.com.au//imagelibrary/inventor … 620815-full.jpg
and have AGP4X+3xPCI+SBlink. Now you have only 1xPCI.

Flare wrote:

Well I installed one of these today: https://www.ebay.com/itm/282939406963

The music sounds great, but there's no voices in Metal & Lace. (I assume because the motherboard lacks Distributed DMA?)

Try the patched setupds. Here is a link to my google drive that has them all.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx6yUkEXCMV … NkY5RklBLWNjT1k

You WILL have to play with the settings in setupds to get everything working.

If you need, I may be able to help you get it working properly.

Also, I found this board that claims to be mini-ITX... size is 240x180mm (9x7in)- looks to be more of a Flex-ATX size.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hot-selling-M … 2732474214.html

Has 2x PCI and 2x ISA.

cyclone3d, are you sure this is a mini ITX board? I think it's some extended PCB like mATX.
And if Flare will have ISA he will not need PCI card for DOS anymore.

PARUS wrote:

cyclone3d, are you sure this is a mini ITX board? I think it's some extended PCB like mATX.
And if Flare will have ISA he will not need PCI card for DOS anymore.

Like I said.. it claims it is mini ITX, but I looked up the size and it is really a Flex-ATX sized board.

Yes, sorry. I read your post not carefully.

cyclone3d wrote:

Try the patched setupds. Here is a link to my google drive that has them all. […]
Show full quote

Flare wrote:

Well I installed one of these today: https://www.ebay.com/itm/282939406963

The music sounds great, but there's no voices in Metal & Lace. (I assume because the motherboard lacks Distributed DMA?)

Try the patched setupds. Here is a link to my google drive that has them all.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx6yUkEXCMV … NkY5RklBLWNjT1k

You WILL have to play with the settings in setupds to get everything working.

If you need, I may be able to help you get it working properly.

Also, I found this board that claims to be mini-ITX... size is 240x180mm (9x7in)- looks to be more of a Flex-ATX size.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hot-selling-M … 2732474214.html

Has 2x PCI and 2x ISA.

The setting to switch away from PC-PCI is grayed out, and everything else I try fails to detect. 🙁

My 'case' is actually a IBM 5150 shell, so there MIGHT be room for a slim mATX board in there. But I'd like to try getting DMA working first.

Do you have PnP OS enabled or disabled in BIOS? Is there even a setting for that with the motherboard you are using?

What setupds.exe are you using?

You may need to F8 and keep setupds.exe from loading through autoexec.bat because if you install the driver, it sets it up to run "setupds.exe /s"

Sometimes that prevents the settings from being changed.

Heh, I told you YMF is often capricious. Now seek out what the mobo's setting hinders. And keep in mind the YMF in PC/PCI mode is trouble-free! I offered motherboard with PC/PCI not just like that. This is ideal for Yamaha 7x4.