VOGONS


Reply 60 of 340, by Tiido

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DMA1+3, IRQ5+9, 220+300+330+WSS addr for YMF
DMA0+5, IRQ7, 240+310+whatever AWE part wants for AWE
PCI stuff lives in its own world 🤣.
I have used such an arrangement in past with SB16 next to a YMF based thing. PCI being ESS Maestro-1 that only did something in Windows only 🤣.

hard1k wrote:

Regarding the DIY option: any possibility to do that via SMD 0 Ohm resistors (with the corresponding traces on board) instead of wires? Just hate wires and patches 😀

There's nowhere to put the traces needed, I would have to completely disrupt the ground planes (really big and fat wires needed to fix that problem 🤣), so not going to happen. Crosstalk with input and output is also a possibility.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
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Reply 61 of 340, by firage

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Hey man, since these cards have two OPL3 cores, how far away are we from some kind of dual OPL2 SB Pro support? 220-221h left OPL2, 222-223h right OPL2, 228-229h & 388-389 for both.

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Reply 62 of 340, by Tiido

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I would need a much more beefy CPLD to even think of such stuff. Something that can take all ISA addresses in and malform them appropriately to get required behaviour and override YMF71x own address decode. Man in the middle.

EDIT: only QFP footprint left to add to the CPLD
BWiP2.png

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
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Reply 64 of 340, by Tiido

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1) There's no direction to extend which yields useful realestate. I could make the card higher but it isn't gonna add much playroom, I need horizontal space but if I extend things on the left edge I get no gains I can use on the analog bits where I need that space, there's no easy way to shift everything towards left.
A) Larger board, larger cost.

BWiP3.png
And CPLD now has QFP footprint also. I don't really have anything left besides possible IO connectors adjustment. Actually I have to tweak WB footprint too, the holes don't quite match reality.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜

Reply 65 of 340, by 640K!enough

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If you wouldn't mind a few more questions:

  1. What software do you use for your designs?
  2. What is the size of the board currently?
  3. Have you ever tried Elna Silmic capacitors in the audio path? Do you think they provide better audio quality, as claimed?
  4. You've said that you are not soldering by hand. Are you using a hot air station or a re-flow oven?
  5. Does the IDE controller have to be enabled? Will it conflict with on-board secondary controllers that aren't disabled or that on another sound card that doesn't allow it to be turned off?

If you could take a few more pictures when you do the next set of boards, I would really like to see your assembly process, if it wouldn't be too much trouble.

Reply 66 of 340, by firage

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Now, I know you're famous for crystal clear™ sound, but what's the lowpass filtering like with this card? I think there's a bunch of old games that benefit from the option of something functional like the original SB Pro 2 provided. Yamaha YMF71x SB Pro Mixer Bug Issue Fix

My big-red-switch 486

Reply 67 of 340, by Tiido

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1) Minimal Board Editor : http://www.suigyodo.com/online/e
2) 158 x 98mm
3) The audio path requires bipolar capacitors for the most part, I don't recall seeing any such in the Silmic series. I don't think there will be any significant measurable difference. The capacitors I use are Nichicon USP
4) Makeshift reflow oven for all the surface mounted parts, you can see photos on the link below. Through hole parts are hand soldered though.
5) IDE is a dumb port without buffers so it can be permanently enabled without any sort of complications. If you have nothing connected the resources are free and won't conflict with anything.

You can see the entire assembly process on the photos on the support page : http://www.tmeeco.eu/TKAYBSC (scroll down to funstuff). If you have more questions just fire away ~

There's no lowpass filtering that cuts into audible freqs anywhere except for PC-Speaker to support sample playback without excessive noise. I have no intention of adding any extra filtering on the SB side or other components and because the relevant components for SB side are in a critical location I cannot provide any provisions for easy modifications, there's just no space for extra pads or larger components. Larger value NP0 / C0G capacitors get expensive pretty quickly aswell as physically large, the stock ones are 1000pF NP0/C0G 0603 parts. You can hear audio recordings of various games on links posted earlier in this thread.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜

Reply 68 of 340, by firage

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So, I believe the deal is the YMF719 has SBFLT pins to provide the DNFI filter. It can be turned on/off via sbp-set.exe, stuff like Doom enable it by default. The filter's implemented with caps that are a bit too small to actually do anything, on James-F's example card.

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Reply 69 of 340, by Tiido

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There's no software controlled filter on YMF71x, the bit in the mixer that controls such a thing on real SB has no effect on YMF71x. You do have sample and hold capacitors for the SB DAC (and also OPL3 DAC) which is what the mod in the link messes with. Too small value and you have an output full of over/understoots and huge amount of ultrasonic content that overloads the poor amps in the mixer stages in the chip resulting in excess distortion and noise, too strong and things get really "slanted", sines get triangular due to slew rate limitations.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜

Reply 70 of 340, by firage

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He does say sbp-set.exe's filter control did toggle it...

On the YMF711 datasheet the SBFLT and SBSH pins are for sure separate things.

Last edited by firage on 2018-07-29, 18:48. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 71 of 340, by Tiido

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Whoops, the input filter bit is the one that's ineffective.
YMF715/719 push them into same function and make room for Ymersion instead.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜

Reply 72 of 340, by firage

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Same function, the caps? So these caps could still be doing their sample/hold job even though they do stop coloring the signal when the output filter is turned off? (After the mod, as the filter isn't audible originally.) Not an expert about any of this..

Little bit of a bummer if functional lowpass filtering is difficult to attain. Even DOSBox's SB Pro emulation (SB16 not so much) has us used to filtering. I'll probably get over it, though. 😀

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Reply 73 of 340, by 640K!enough

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Tiido wrote:

3) The audio path requires bipolar capacitors for the most part, I don't recall seeing any such in the Silmic series. I don't think there will be any significant measurable difference. The capacitors I use are Nichicon USP

Is that your decision to improve audio quality? I have never seen bi-polar capacitors specified for a sound card. In almost all cases, they make use of run-of-the-mill electrolytic capacitors for everything that isn't ceramic, with the occasional tantalum. Am I missing something?

Reply 74 of 340, by Tiido

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There are several areas where there's no biasing present for the capacitors, in those areas normal e-cap will fail very quickly due to being reverse biased half the time when sound goes through it. In some areas the capacitors would be biased properly most of the time but at large enough signals they will get reverse biased and while the capacitors can survive it, it will still potentially cause problems in the long term, so better be safe than sorry. It is more about longetivity than measurable sound quality, these capacitors will have much greater lifetime due to lacking self destruct mechanism from reverse biasing and healing mechanism that depends on being forward biased. Distortionwise, the larger the value used the lesser will distortion get at lower frequencies (like 150Hz and below). It can reach 0.1% with under 10µF and more with smaller values. With the 47µF I'm using it stays under 0.01%, but ideally they would be over 100µF but I lack physical space for that (if WB header didn't exist I could use taller capacitors). There are sections about capacitor distortion in Douglas Self's books and there's some resources online also.

Ceramics (unless they are NP0/C0G) types introduce lot of distortion (several % even) due to massive loss of capacitance as the voltage across them increases, for DC blocking you only have the option of using MLCCs that are hopefully X5R type to get best out of a bad situation, X7R are sometimes acceptable too but the other types like Y and Z types are not at all. Even in power supply bypass applications they can be problematic as they lose over 50% of their value at any DC bias (i.e sitting between power rails). They are also microphonic.

Tantalum capacitors cannot handle reverse biasing without pretty much immediate damage and it is not very easy to make sure they're always forward biased, distortion performance is also poor (but I have not been able to find anymeasurement graphs) and they are also microphonic. They don't lose capacitance significantly under bias like most ceramics do and are superior to them on this aspect.

Film capacitors are generally linear, even the ones that distort (polyester types) do so at under 0.001% levels. Polystyrene (fragile and low values) has best performance and so do polypropylene types but they don't come in large values that are not insanely large physically. Polyester types come in largest values but they're still very large (several cm³ for 4.7µF for example). They're also expensive like C0G/NP0 capacitors are but are available in much larger capacitances.

I'm only using NP0/C0G types in the filters and feedback paths.

And as far as SB filtering goes, in the end there's nothing that cuts into audible freq range in this card. Authenticity is not in the consideration at all. If I had an original SB(pro) card the filters gets adjusted as the first thing I do with the card, I don't tolerate subjectively muffled sound 🤣.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜

Reply 75 of 340, by firage

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It's not a big deal, as long as the card still has similar provisions to perform the mods as the other cards i.e. it's not too incredibly tight. It'll be somewhere on my priorities list to change these switchable output filter caps for something subtle but functional. Maybe try some 2.2nF for the YMF719 OPL sample/hold ones next to them as well, as you mentioned in the other thread, as the second OPL3 in the YMF721 will always get me back to the chirpy tone where preferred.

The deal with the output filter is that SB Pro games should know to switch it on or off, but they often just leave it. It's enabled at startup, and Doom and other games will force it on, so you'll be living with it when it is made functional. Games might leave it on or off upon exit, too, so you're kinda always looking after it.

Last edited by firage on 2018-07-30, 09:35. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 76 of 340, by Tiido

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The relevant parts are 0603 type (1.6 x 0.8mm in size) and reside in a bit over 0.5cm² area. These are cricical parts in a critical area and I won't be increasing part size or reducing density so no provisions for changing them out unless you're comfy at dealing with the small parts. You can see 6 capacitors in a two rows of 3 next to corner of the YMF719, that's what one is dealing with.

EDIT: It seems the WB header + holes placement matches SB16 cards I got, but DB60XG has the holes slightly offset. One Aztech card I have lacks the holes altogether. I'm not sure if I should adjust the holes slightly to allow spacers to fit better or not. I actually have no spacers to use and I doubt others got them also. I'm also not sure how well other WB cards match the holes of SB16 cards.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜

Reply 77 of 340, by hard1k

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Spacers are easy to get, please check twice - all my DB60XG's and other DBs lije WB and SCB-55 have the holes in the same places.

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Reply 78 of 340, by Tiido

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They're definitely offset by about 0.25mm on my modules in relation to holes on the SB16 and my own card. The holes are not drilled but punched so I suppose they are supposed to be within accepted tolerance range. I'll leave it be then.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜

Reply 79 of 340, by firage

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Came across a comparison shot of the XR385 and DB50XG, and the holes don't seem to quite line up all around. https://retrosoundcards.files.wordpress.com/2 … ha-db50xg_2.jpg

One or two pegs go a long way to secure them, and it's all you get with short PCI cards, etc.

My big-red-switch 486