VOGONS


Reply 40 of 51, by franky52

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After a while since I wanted to populate my pci riser, I will finally try it.
But after checking and rechecking the caps values, there’s something I’m not 100% sure.
According to cyclone3d, TC4 is populated with a 16v cap, while the other 3 are only6.3V. But if I follow the trace departing from TC3, it ends up in the +12V pad (A2 pin according to the PCI specs).
Shouldn’t be required a 16V cap in TC3 while the other 3 can be populated with a 6.3V cap? Most probably I’m wrong, but I need a confirmation before blowing up the thin client 😀 😀

Reply 41 of 51, by Frunzl

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I can't wait any longer... I have to do it.

I also recently acquired a T5720 Thin Client. GPUs work perfectly in the PCI slot, as far as I have tested (Voodoo3, FX5500, GF6200).
PCI Sound cards invariably show the known issues (horrible noise, no real sound output).

Stage 1: Adding the surface mount capacitors from a most useless PCI modem card.

I removed the capacitors and placed them on the PCI riser using a hot-air soldering station at around 250 °C for a very short time (sry for the atrocious pics). As previously suggested, I simply chose the capacitors by size. Upon measuring, they turn out to be around 300 nF.

Preliminary result --> The riser still works with regular PCI GPUs. No fires yet.

I will receive the 16V and 6.3V radial ELKOs next week. I will post my results.

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Last edited by Frunzl on 2021-02-11, 09:36. Edited 3 times in total.

Reply 42 of 51, by Frunzl

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franky52 wrote on 2021-01-25, 22:34:
After a while since I wanted to populate my pci riser, I will finally try it. But after checking and rechecking the caps values, […]
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After a while since I wanted to populate my pci riser, I will finally try it.
But after checking and rechecking the caps values, there’s something I’m not 100% sure.
According to cyclone3d, TC4 is populated with a 16v cap, while the other 3 are only6.3V. But if I follow the trace departing from TC3, it ends up in the +12V pad (A2 pin according to the PCI specs).
Shouldn’t be required a 16V cap in TC3 while the other 3 can be populated with a 6.3V cap? Most probably I’m wrong, but I need a confirmation before blowing up the thin client 😀 😀

I have verified that TC4 indeed connects to the 5V pins 61 and 62 (and A/B5 and the rest of the 5 V-crew). Also, TC3 does connect to A2 at 12 V.
So, placing the 16 V cap in TC3 seems pretty mandatory and I will do so... Fire approaching... 😀

@franky52 have you tried this yet?

Reply 43 of 51, by franky52

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Indeed. But I didn’t report my findings because I want to make a small report.

Anyway, for me and my AOPEN 744, nothing changed after populating the pci riser. Same low volume and same static noise when moving the mouse.

The main problem with this kind of computer, thin clients, etc, is the lack of the -12V line. Not only on the PCI bus, but on the motherboard. This current is mandatory on this kind of sound cards because the amplifiers work with -12V.

The AOPEN 744 works flawlessly in my K7 retro computer because the pci bus provides -12V.

And I’ve been able to make it work on a Futro S400 (almost same specs and motherboard as the T5720) without any noise, but only after providing -12V to the A2 pin of the pci bus.
The S400 doesn’t provide -12v on the pci riser A2 pin, but I was able to get -8v from the COM port and it seems the sound card is happy with only -8V.

I ordered some +12v to -12v converter to try to make this sound card work on the T5720 but until next month I won’t be able to test it. Check this post to learn about the -12v PCI Riser Card capacitors - required on all thin clients?

If I were you, and your sound card requires -12v, don’t populate the pci riser and instead buy a converter like this https://es.aliexpress.com/item/4001133889934. … searchweb201603_

Or buy a Futro S400. Mine is working amazingly with 512mb RAM max and 64Gb Compact Flash in win98SE.

Reply 44 of 51, by Frunzl

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This is pretty... frustrating to say the least. How come that some people (e.g. Phil) report that it works in the first place, then only with modifications, then not at all...

Anyway, thanks for the warning, but apparently I had to learn it the hard way and already populated it myself a few minutes before you wrote your post 😀
Although the cap values were slightly off, I had the same result as you. Even with the caps, no improvement whatsoever. I tried a few sound cards, SB Audigy, ES1370, same thing (unfortunately, I don't own a fancy YMF7x4 card).

I already knew the post about the -12V rail, but I dismissed it, since it was not about the T5720. Stupid me.
Concerning the buck converter, they are only available from China and I am not willing to wait 2+ months. So, I ordered the only one available short-term and it is absolutely humongous, 4x4 cm! omg, this will be the ugliest thing that ever was.
At least, you can grab +12 V pretty easily right next to cn4, but the output will have to be soldered directly to the socket, since there is no connection at all between B1 on the socket and the riser male.

I hope, you will post, how it went for you, when you get yours.

Reply 45 of 51, by franky52

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Frunzl wrote on 2021-02-11, 18:03:
This is pretty... frustrating to say the least. How come that some people (e.g. Phil) report that it works in the first place, t […]
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This is pretty... frustrating to say the least. How come that some people (e.g. Phil) report that it works in the first place, then only with modifications, then not at all...

Anyway, thanks for the warning, but apparently I had to learn it the hard way and already populated it myself a few minutes before you wrote your post 😀
Although the cap values were slightly off, I had the same result as you. Even with the caps, no improvement whatsoever. I tried a few sound cards, SB Audigy, ES1370, same thing (unfortunately, I don't own a fancy YMF7x4 card).

I already knew the post about the -12V rail, but I dismissed it, since it was not about the T5720. Stupid me.
Concerning the buck converter, they are only available from China and I am not willing to wait 2+ months. So, I ordered the only one available short-term and it is absolutely humongous, 4x4 cm! omg, this will be the ugliest thing that ever was.
At least, you can grab +12 V pretty easily right next to cn4, but the output will have to be soldered directly to the socket, since there is no connection at all between B1 on the socket and the riser male.

I hope, you will post, how it went for you, when you get yours.

I don´t know about Phil´s thin client. It´s a mystery for all of us because apparently, he´s got the same pci riser and sound card... But I know for sure that other Yamaha cards don´t need the -12v rail. The Aopen is"special". So it is the SB Audigy, at least my Audigy 2 ZS that needs the negative rail also.

Sure I will post pictures from both thin clients, but right now I´m busy with a move by the end of the month, studies and most importantly, I´m still waiting for the converter ("only" around 3 weeks to get to Spain from China). Don´t expect anything until mid-March, sorry.

About the soldering, you can use the back of the pci riser to get +12v from A2, Ground from B3 and deliver -12V in B1. Anyway, if want to keep the sound card plugged on all the time and the thin client closed, you should use a pci riser cable like Phil does in one of their videos and solder directly on the back of the motherboard or directly to the cable, unless you have got the T5720 case extension.

Reply 46 of 51, by Frunzl

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franky52 wrote on 2021-02-11, 20:55:

About the soldering, you can use the back of the pci riser to get +12v from A2, Ground from B3 and deliver -12V in B1. Anyway, if want to keep the sound card plugged on all the time and the thin client closed, you should use a pci riser cable like Phil does in one of their videos and solder directly on the back of the motherboard or directly to the cable, unless you have got the T5720 case extension.

I have an update. The crappy, gigantic converter, I previously ordered, was dead on arrival and I decided to go a little more integrated. So I ordered one of these little SiP converters (specifically the DPUN02M-12, see image) and soldered it onto the riser. Normally, I would not show these pictures, since I (re-)soldered the PCB so many times now, it really looks bad, but for information purposes, I guess, I have to 😀

The best part: once I put in the first sound card, a worthless Creative SB64 PCI and before I even got to connect the VGA cable, I was greeted by the Windows startup sound, loud and clear!
So, I can confirm that providing -12 V to pin B1 definitely solves the issue! Hooray! 😀

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Reply 47 of 51, by franky52

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Congrats! That confirms that the real problem was the lack of -12v, not the lack of the caps.

Last week I got some converters, but until a couple of weeks I won’t be able to install it. As I have a pci riser and a pci cable extender, I plan to try both options.

Enjoy your new old retro computer !!

Reply 48 of 51, by Frunzl

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franky52 wrote on 2021-02-22, 22:10:

Congrats! That confirms that the real problem was the lack of -12v, not the lack of the caps.

Yes, absolutely, one of the caps is now in fact preventing the converter from sitting straight on the pcb and I seriously consider removing them altogether... but I am also pretty lazy, so I probably wont.

franky52 wrote on 2021-02-22, 22:10:

Enjoy your new old retro computer !!

Thanks! And you can also be more confident about the result (but sorry for the spoiler). I hope you will still show the end-product, especially with the riser cable!
For me, the journey isnt over though. I have already upgraded the CPU with an NX1750, which works great, but I still would like to put in faster memory. Unfortunately, the machine does not accept my DDR400 module.. It is CL 2.5, so pretty unusual, which may be the reason. No idea, need to get another one... I also attempted to install a 2-slot riser from another HP-machine. Both cards (GPU and Sound) are detected and seem to work at first, but once I install the GPU-driver, I keep getting "Windows protection error"s at startup. I am pretty sure, it is a resource problem, but I wasnt able to solve it.

Reply 49 of 51, by cyclone3d

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Weird... I wonder why it works on mine with just the caps.

Maybe different versions of the motherboards?

Yamaha YMF modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG resource repository - updated November 27, 2018
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
AW744L II - YMF744 - AOpen Cobra Sound Card - Install SB-Link Header
Epstein didn't kill himself

Reply 50 of 51, by franky52

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@cyclone3d. Might be the sound card. Not all of them require -12v.
I wasn’t able to get loud and clear sound on the Aopen Cobra nor on the Audigy 2 ZS only with the caps.
However with -8v that the COM supplies is more than enough to get crystal clear sound. This is on a Futro S400

In a couple of weeks I will post my results with the HP T5720 and will upload some pictures. I own 2 risers, one of them populated. I will try with both to see (hear) the difference and with the pci cable extender.

Reply 51 of 51, by Frunzl

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cyclone3d wrote on 2021-02-23, 04:47:

Weird... I wonder why it works on mine with just the caps.

Maybe different versions of the motherboards?

What you experienced could also be a different kind of noise (probably much less severe).
For me, the cards didnt make any sound at all and when playing a file, it was more like a faint peak in 99% static. Also, I have no way to verify that without the capacitors, there wouldn't be any interference or hiss etc (since I only have this one riser). So it may very well be that the caps do improve the sound quality after all.

Would be interesting if you could try another sound card in your system. In my case, the SB Audigy 2ZS, the SB 64PCI and the Monster Sound MX300 all wont work without -12 Volts.