VOGONS


Yamaha XG with S/PDIF out ?

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Reply 21 of 45, by Intel486dx33

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Bancho wrote:
I picked up a XG Card with Coax SPDIF out on it. Looks to be a no name chinese brand but quality is good and it has SB-Link popu […]
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I picked up a XG Card with Coax SPDIF out on it. Looks to be a no name chinese brand but quality is good and it has SB-Link populated also.

QQU7VXHl.jpg

Oh, I see what you are saying. Where the yellow coax connector is is where the connections are for s/pdif out on all the Yamaha xg cards. You just have to solder on a tos-link connector for optical out.

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Reply 22 of 45, by PARUS

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No. It's not enough! I have shown you resistors between DSP and connector place, did you see? And capacitors are probably necessary too.
Why don't you just buy a card with S/PDIF connector? Why do you make a problem when it is absent?

Reply 24 of 45, by squareguy

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No it does not have Yamaha XG MIDI in Pure DOS

Yes it has OPL3 in Pure DOS

Gateway 2000 Case and 200-Watt PSU
Intel SE440BX-2 Motherboard
Intel Pentium III 450 CPU
Micron 384MB SDRAM (3x128)
Compaq Voodoo3 3500 TV Graphics Card
Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Sound Card
Western Digital 7200-RPM, 8MB-Cache, 160GB Hard Drive
Windows 98 SE

Reply 25 of 45, by Intel486dx33

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squareguy wrote:

No it does not have Yamaha XG MIDI in Pure DOS

Yes it has OPL3 in Pure DOS

What does this mean?
Will it play MIDI files in DOS or NOT ?

Reply 26 of 45, by Tiido

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In pure DOS you will not get any of the XG stuff.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜

Reply 27 of 45, by PARUS

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Guys he doesn't see the different MIDI and OPL3. Explain him.

OPL/FM commands aren't MIDI commands. But any MIDI file can be easy converted to OPL commands. Reversed process OPL>MIDI as I know is impossible. So if a game supports GM music it can play its MIDIs through OPL synth. But if a game supports natively FM synth it can't be played via GM synth, and no one patch exist.

YMF7x4 supports FM in pure DOS but doesn't support GM/XG in pure DOS.

Reply 28 of 45, by gdjacobs

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Exactly,OPL3 is different compared to MIDI. However, MIDI also has two paths on these cards:

In Windows, these cards have drivers that provide GM/XG synthesis (similar to external Yamaha modules) as well as MIDI output via the game port for other external modules.
In DOS, you must use the MIDI output via the gameport to connect external modules to provide MIDI synthesis. The internal XG synthesizer doesn't function in pure DOS.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 29 of 45, by jxalex

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Intel486dx33 wrote:

This Yamaha XG is DOS compatible. Will MIDI support work in DOS ? OPL3 ?
Looking for a NEW sound card that is DOS / MIDI compatible.

So you can solder things together?
If the ISA bus card is acceptable too then after if you have some patience then
well, then perhaps soon there will be some modular build, after I have completed the first prototype.
look at my signature... 😉 The card focus is exactly for DOS compatibility and digital I/O, for ISA bus.

still in early stage but it requires work and not money. And just now the goal is to get the schematic minimized with
components also to hobby developer friendly who actually can solder at home these things. So, no these tiny trace soldering.

Also, the MIDI (and MP3) capability can be added by adding the VS1053 (or something) chip. It is known to have that general midi support.
So, thats the possibility too, which needs some research, but I havent reached so far.
http://www.vlsi.fi/en/products/vs1053.html
(IMHO, even if just making it interfaced with LPT port with some mux device and clock generator, can make wonders on any DOS perhaps?)

PCI cards all need TSR and EMM386 in order to keep it Soundblaster compatible.
So far for PCI soundblaster cards has the native support MPXPLAY 1.62 only. Or are there more?

Then... let the chinese multiply it in thousands. Then we vogons here all what we need is perhaps that someone in the future makes the best clones of the 486 clones too and we have done it -- ditched M$ windows and Intel new mobos alltogether and living happilyeverafter -- all retro is new..

Current project: DOS ISA soundcard with 24bit/96Khz digital I/O, SB16 compatible switchable.
newly made SB-clone ...with 24bit and AES/EBU... join in development!

Reply 30 of 45, by Kamerat

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jxalex wrote:

PCI cards all need TSR and EMM386 in order to keep it Soundblaster compatible.

That's not true. Yamaha YMF7x4 PCI, ESS Solo-1, Crystal 4630, Avance Logic ALS4000, Forté Media FM801, Trident 4DWave and CMI 8738 can all do Sound Blaster emulation without any TSR loaded. Some of theese have a TSR for IRQ emulation (not needed as you can use the PCI IRQ instead) and the YMF7x4 got a TSR for DMA emulation on motherboards not supporting DDMA or PC/PCI. Aureal Vortex requires a TSR running for Sound Blaster emulation, but it does not require EMM386.

DOS Sound Blaster compatibility: PCI sound cards vs. PCI chipsets
YouTube channel

Reply 31 of 45, by jxalex

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Kamerat wrote:
That's not true. Yamaha YMF7x4 PCI, ESS Solo-1, Crystal 4630, Avance Logic ALS4000, Forté Media FM801, T […]
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jxalex wrote:

PCI cards all need TSR and EMM386 in order to keep it Soundblaster compatible.

That's not true.
Yamaha YMF7x4 PCI,
ESS Solo-1,
Crystal 4630,
Avance Logic ALS4000,
Forté Media FM801,
Trident 4DWave
CMI 8738
can all do Sound Blaster emulation without any TSR loaded.
Some of theese have a TSR for IRQ emulation (not needed as you can use the PCI IRQ instead) and the YMF7x4 got a TSR for DMA emulation on motherboards not supporting DDMA or PC/PCI.
Aureal Vortex requires a TSR running for Sound Blaster emulation, but it does not require EMM386.

alright, good one then.
So far I thought all with SB under the DOS ended when all moved to PCI, also those SB PCI cards which emulate SB16, their MIDI port does not work.

However it is really complicated, becouse there are no detailed information about the cards.
Which of them in the list really provide also MIDI UART for DOS? So, recognized by tracker programs as Fasttracker 2?
DO they all emulate SB16 when they emulate SB?
one of these 3 properties is mostly missing. Tried to search. The search engines cant provide information for half of those cards ... not much more other than "get drivers for windows666". , 🙁 Just like there is quite hopeless to get official answer if the MIDI UART works under the DOS too with SB1024 card. (one I have here and SB16 emulation works, but MIDI UART does not work under DOS).

One thing is possible, IF some card has a separate chip for DAC then it is possible to get digital output too, but for this the close up pictures are needed.

Current project: DOS ISA soundcard with 24bit/96Khz digital I/O, SB16 compatible switchable.
newly made SB-clone ...with 24bit and AES/EBU... join in development!

Reply 32 of 45, by gdjacobs

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jxalex wrote:
alright, good one then. So far I thought all with SB under the DOS ended when all moved to PCI, also those SB PCI cards which e […]
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alright, good one then.
So far I thought all with SB under the DOS ended when all moved to PCI, also those SB PCI cards which emulate SB16, their MIDI port does not work.

However it is really complicated, becouse there are no detailed information about the cards.
Which of them in the list really provide also MIDI UART for DOS? So, recognized by tracker programs as Fasttracker 2?

Not sure about the Crystal, Forte, and Trident, but I believe the rest do.

jxalex wrote:

DO they all emulate SB16 when they emulate SB?

No, most emulate SB Pro. I think only the ALS and CMI cards do SB 16.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 33 of 45, by Kamerat

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jxalex wrote:
alright, good one then. So far I thought all with SB under the DOS ended when all moved to PCI, also those SB PCI cards which e […]
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alright, good one then.
So far I thought all with SB under the DOS ended when all moved to PCI, also those SB PCI cards which emulate SB16, their MIDI port does not work.

However it is really complicated, becouse there are no detailed information about the cards.
Which of them in the list really provide also MIDI UART for DOS? So, recognized by tracker programs as Fasttracker 2?
DO they all emulate SB16 when they emulate SB?

Yamaha YMF7x4 PCI: Sound Blaster Pro + MPU-401
ESS Solo-1: Sound Blaster Pro + MPU-401
Crystal 4630: Sound Blaster Pro
Avance Logic ALS4000: Sound Blaster 16 + MPU-401
Forté Media FM801: Sound Blaster Pro + MPU-401
Trident 4DWave: Sound Blaster 16 (you can also trick the MPU-401 interface into working, but it can't run along with PCM sound)
CMI 8738: Sound Blaster 16/Pro (really limited game compatibility) + MPU-401
Aureal Vortex: Sound Blaster Pro + MPU-401
Philips Acoustic Edge: Sound Blaster Pro + MPU-401

Unfortunatly many of the cards needs DDMA support from the chipset for PCM playback which Intel removed with their 8xx series of chipsets. You can have a look at the chart in my signature for some compatibility information.

jxalex wrote:

one of these 3 properties is mostly missing. Tried to search. The search engines cant provide information for half of those cards ... not much more other than "get drivers for windows666". , 🙁 Just like there is quite hopeless to get official answer if the MIDI UART works under the DOS too with SB1024 card. (one I have here and SB16 emulation works, but MIDI UART does not work under DOS).

I don't think it's possible to use the MIDI UART on the Ensoniq/Creative line of PCI cards under DOS. 🙁

jxalex wrote:

One thing is possible, IF some card has a separate chip for DAC then it is possible to get digital output too, but for this the close up pictures are needed.

The Forté Media FM801 have support for SPDIF out in pure DOS mode at least.

DOS Sound Blaster compatibility: PCI sound cards vs. PCI chipsets
YouTube channel

Reply 34 of 45, by jxalex

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oh yeah, just THAT component was missing in that whole PCI cards DOS blues -- the motherboard chipsets! 🙁
when looking that table (which was not found even by search engine as relevant information) then there was none of those which would have this combination to my existing chipset motherboards (i865), so there would be MPU401 and SB16, or that digital output too.

jxalex wrote:

one of these 3 properties is mostly missing. Tried to search. The search engines cant provide information for half of those cards ... not much more other than "get drivers for windows666". , 🙁 Just like there is quite hopeless to get official answer if the MIDI UART works under the DOS too with SB1024 card. (one I have here and SB16 emulation works, but MIDI UART does not work under DOS).

I don't think it's possible to use the MIDI UART on the Ensoniq/Creative line of PCI cards under DOS. 🙁

yep.
Soundblaster1024 card emulates SB16 and has digital output (SPDIF) which works also under the DOS, but that is not exactly digital, but cheat. It is noisy like there has been some DAC-ADC conversion between in order to make that SPDIF signal. 😉 (perhaps it should be tested what exactly is going on, but I havent bothered after I discovered such noise levels.)

with its MPU401 port does not work with the intel865 chipsets under DOS. That I tested already.
Thus that card is unusable with midi gear under the DOS with FT2.

Current project: DOS ISA soundcard with 24bit/96Khz digital I/O, SB16 compatible switchable.
newly made SB-clone ...with 24bit and AES/EBU... join in development!

Reply 37 of 45, by kodi

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kodi wrote:

So, no one knows what are the values of the missing components like R58, etc?

OK, I finally found some relevant information on the above question:

A) the full-featured card (by that I mean the one that has the components for SPDIF Optical Output and SPDIF Optical/Coaxial Digital Input populated on the board) is model called "AW744 Pro 2":

http://us.aopen.com/products_detail.aspx?auno=1109

B) I am attaching most hi-res pictures I found - unfortunately still not sufficient to read the values at least of the missing resistors

C) As obvious from the pictures, Digital Input is both Coax and Optical and it uses daughter board (also picture of it is attached), as far as the main board is concerned the related missing components on "Cobra" are resistor R64 and 4-pin white header.

D) Again, from the picture: Digital Output is Optical only, on "Cobra" it seems 3 components are missing:

D.1) R58
D.2) C101
D.3) S/PDIF connector -"JAPAN" is written on the black plastic, but the exact model is not visible - that usually is written on the rear of the connector. See E)

E) I have several S/PDIF Optical Output connector around me, but none of them has the same footprint as D.3).

I found another board model "AW744 Deluxe" that uses connector with the exact same footprint - attaching 3 pictures of it, 1 of the bottom and 2 of the top of the board. On the second picture of the top, the model of the connector on its rear is visible, but unreadable

Maybe, from here someone will further figure out the missing pieces on "Cobra".

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Reply 38 of 45, by kodi

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misterjones wrote:
I have a variation of the same card in my retro machine (Aopen AW744) […]
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I have a variation of the same card in my retro machine (Aopen AW744)

20180525-155756.jpg

Except that for SPDIF mine has the optical output onboard.

I cannot send private messages (I guess disabled for new members), but please, could you tell us:

1) what is written on "R64" on your board near the SPDIF connector
2) what is written on the rear of the SPDIF connector
3) if you have digital multi-meter measure "C101" near the SPDIF connector and let us know the value

many many thanks!!! p.s. if you want to know more why I am asking, you can read point E) in my previous post.

Reply 39 of 45, by kodi

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SOLVED (thanks to a friend not on this forum who told me SPDIF connector model and corresponding Capacitor value from his noname Yamaha card) or How To Add S/PDIF Output on Cobra:

A) S/PDIF Connector model is TX178S - that's Toshiba, hence "JAPAN" on the top of the connector.

[EDIT] Oh, now this is also double confirmed, because Google "Aw744Pro TX178S" and 2 sites in Russian pops up - they specifically mentioned that on AW744Pro - the board I mentioned few posts ago that initiated my investigation, the S/PDIF module is "Toshiba TX178S" [EDIT_END]

I am not an expect on the subject and It would be great if someone can list compatible alternatives of TX178S, because at least what I found as offerings - it's expensive, e.g. like 6-7 times more expensive than TX176 for example.

B) C101 is 0.1uF - that is now double confirmed, both with measuring the capacitor on my friend's board, as well from TX178S datasheet. And you can think even triple confirmed, because it was expected value, as it's "bypass" capacitor for TX178S power supply.

C) R58 - that is board-specific, the value should be such that voltage between 4.75 and 5.25, typically 5V, is provided to TX178S. I haven't done any experiments on Cobra, but trying 2 different resistor values and measure the voltage should be enough to determine/calculate the proper value for Cobra design before solder A). [EDIT] Maybe, I am wrong and it's current-limiting resistor for the LED in TX178S?[EDIT_END]

So, that is guys, now it should be possible to add S/PDIF Output to your Cobra cards.

P.S. #1 And for completeness, if you need to add SB-Link on Cobra, the 2 missing resistors R50 and R49 are "103", i.e. 10K. That is the second useful for us modification.

P.S. #2 Cobra has one design flaw - I guess some capacitor should be larger value (I need to trace the board - maybe capacitor on +5V from PCI slot path), because it generates very annoying noise every time my electric heater turns on and off (it's controlled by digital thermostat) even they are miles away from each other and the only thing that connects them is the electric grid in my house. I borrowed another noname Yamaha PCI card and it has no such issue. Also no any other PCI sound card I've tried has such issue. It's neither isolated case to my Cobra card as I tested another one and it shows the exact same problem. So, If anyone has any idea about this let me know.