FreddyV wrote on 2021-12-24, 10:03:

About the code publishing. […]
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About the code publishing.

If somebody make money with a game using my code it can be Nice if I have some compensation. It is more a matter of respect for my job than making money...

I have enaugh money. I surely make more money in one Day in my job that I will do with Mod Master in one year 😀

My main goal is to push the limits and make the PC XT plateform more fun to use.
So, for me, publish my code is important, the job done will be useless if I don't share it.
BTW, I already sent my code to Jim leonard.

I also already published one MOD/XM replay code more advanced and mature than Mod Master USMPlay.

So a licence like free to use and modify, but share something if money is made with it can be Nice.

Wouldn't the GPL be quite a good match, then?
It would basically mean that everybody can use the ModMaster code with GPL compatible open source code, but would have to approach you and potential contributors to negotiate a different license if they want to include ModMaster code in a commercial code base.

FreddyV wrote on 2021-12-24, 10:03:

About the code publishing. […]
Show full quote

About the code publishing.

If somebody make money with a game using my code it can be Nice if I have some compensation. It is more a matter of respect for my job than making money...

I have enaugh money. I surely make more money in one Day in my job that I will do with Mod Master in one year 😀

My main goal is to push the limits and make the PC XT plateform more fun to use.
So, for me, publish my code is important, the job done will be useless if I don't share it.
BTW, I already sent my code to Jim leonard.

I also already published one MOD/XM replay code more advanced and mature than Mod Master USMPlay.

So a licence like free to use and modify, but share something if money is made with it can be Nice.

Well, if that's what you want, you could make up your own license,
with your own terms as you described.
Base it mainly on an open-source type license that you're comfortable with,
but add a chapter that explains that any use of the code for commercial use / financial benefit
requires a license from you...
There are already quite a few commercial products which come with full source code around,
so you won't have to look far for a suitable license... (like Benedikt said above)

Good luck with that,
Terrence

PS: I will make up some photoshop mockups during the next few weeks and post them here...
Is there any existing software that has a UI you like that can serve as inspiration ?

radiance32 wrote on 2021-12-25, 06:12:

PS: I will make up some photoshop mockups during the next few weeks and post them here...
Is there any existing software that has a UI you like that can serve as inspiration ?

Thanks,
There are really few graphical MOD Player on PC 😀

FreddyV wrote on 2021-12-27, 13:45:

radiance32 wrote on 2021-12-25, 06:12:

PS: I will make up some photoshop mockups during the next few weeks and post them here...
Is there any existing software that has a UI you like that can serve as inspiration ?

Thanks,
There are really few graphical MOD Player on PC 😀

Ok, before I start would you mind answering all of these questions, so I don't end up making something you don't like or need:

1. Do you want a GUI for the file browsing / configuration part of the software, or, a GUI for the player part of the software, or, both ?

2. Since we're dealing with old machines, it's safe to assume there will be people with an 8086 or 286 system,
with a CGA card, or a hercules monochrome card, aswell as people with more modern cards like EGA,
and especially VGA and MCGA.

I could design a black and white only GUI (not greyscale, pure monochrome) for the CGA (640x200 mono) or
the Hercules (720x348 mono) for the CGA and Hercules equipped machines,
and either an EGA color (somehow try to make something nice looking with 640x350 16 colors) or
EGA greyscale (640x350x4bit and use only black, dark grey, light grey and white).

And finally for the VGA cards (640x480 256 colors) I could do the same as for EGA,
either a color UI with 256 colors or a more elaborate greyscale version, or, my preference:
just use the EGA version with 4 colors (black, dark grey, light grey and white)

What do you think about these 3 options ? Shall I design a black and white (CGA/hercules) and
greyscale (EGA/VGA) GUI ? Or, make a separate color version of the GUI for EGA and VGA???

Personally, since you want a lean/mean/efficient GUI, my personal preference would be the first option,
monochrome and greyscale (with 4 colors) only. We could add color in a future version,
as making designs for all these different modes right now is a lot of work and will slow things down considerably.
It's also much more efficient especially for a GUI for the player part to copy 4 bits to a pixel than 8 bits on VGA systems.
(we could use EGA mode on VGA systems, so the VGA card switches to 640x350x4bit and just use
the EGA grayscale UI with the 4 greyscale colors mentioned above)
Please let me know what you want and provide a detailed answer on this question as
it's really important for me to know before I start work on the design.

3. For the file selection / configuration part, Do you want to have windows that can me moved around / minimized / maximimed / resized,
or just a static design (same concept as the text UI of the current versions of Mod Master is).

4. Widgets ! As we will need to add widgets like buttons, scrollbars, textfields etc... Do you want me to design a set of custom widgets,
or do you want to use a specific design that looks like an operating system already out there,
eg, I could make them look like OSF/Motif widgets, Windows 3.11 Widgets, Windows 95 Widgets, etc...
Personally I'd like to design my own set of widgets, but please let me know what you think of this and what you'd like the most.

5. Do you want a menu bar on top (in the file selection / configuration GUI) with the typical File / Edit / View / Help pulldown menus and in the File menu
you'd have New / Open / Preferences / Save Preferences / Quit.
I won't be using those actual menu contents as they aren't correct for the application in question, but I can make a nice pulldown menu system
that we can add the required menu entries to after the design is finished and someone starts writing the code for the GUI.

6. Do you want me to design a logo for the application ? It can be shown either at startup, or, when a user goes to Help -> About,
and a window pops up with the credits (eg your details etc...) and the logo is shown.
I can design it in SVG vector format, so you can use it afterwards in a PDF manual or on your website where people can download the app.

So,
please let me know the answers to these 6 questions, as I can't start before I have your detailed opinion on those...
I would'nt want to put hours and hours of work into something that you won't like...

Cheers,
Radiance

Hi @FreedyV, @radiance32,

my very small number of cents:
- I agree with what's been said by others: Using GPL if you wish to open source your work would very effectively help you achieve what you want: Anyone who develops something based on your code has to open source their code under the same license. Anyone who wished to make a binary distribution (closed source) for money will have to negotiate a separate license with you. I highly doubt anyone is going to make any money to speak of in this space - neither game/application developers nor you - but the GPL would help both you and the community ensure that collaboration is possible and within a well-defined set of rules, while also ensuring that you control for-profit use of your code.

- A new UI: My personal opinion is that graphics, particularly low-resolution CGA/MDA/EGA or even VGA, will be of very limited value compared to clever use of text modes. I also always thought graphics will ~always be significantly slower - but perhaps I'm wrong here? I nevertheless believe one of the major weak points of module players out there - graphical or not - lies in usability, not eye candy.
And I really quie like the current UI, even if it might be a pain to maintain :)

One of my personal gripes is the consistent lack of ability to do recursive directory dives and maintaining a playlist of the modules located this way, including whether and when a module was last played. If I want to listen through all the thousands of modules I have, I'd like to not have to rely only on 8.3 filenames to remember them or how far I got (between player/computer crashes, real world events, or whatever). Recursing is expensive, I realise that - but by maintaining a list of files found and only look for changes when asked to that work can be limited greatly.
There used to be an image viewer - I cannot recall the name - which did this and I remember having a cache file that was maintained successfully for several years, with thousands of entries, for precisely this purpose. It even offered file management (delete/rename/move) while playing, and even cached the destination directories I entered in case of a move, so (re)organising was incredibly easy. I have not seen anything quite like it even in modern-day applications; much less in early 90's era software.

Can't wait for the next code drop - if nothing else to get the fixes in the current rev minus the debug prints :)

/Eirik

ltning wrote on 2021-12-28, 00:11:

Hi @FreedyV, @radiance32, […]
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Hi @FreedyV, @radiance32,

my very small number of cents:
- I agree with what's been said by others: Using GPL if you wish to open source your work would very effectively help you achieve what you want: Anyone who develops something based on your code has to open source their code under the same license. Anyone who wished to make a binary distribution (closed source) for money will have to negotiate a separate license with you. I highly doubt anyone is going to make any money to speak of in this space - neither game/application developers nor you - but the GPL would help both you and the community ensure that collaboration is possible and within a well-defined set of rules, while also ensuring that you control for-profit use of your code.

- A new UI: My personal opinion is that graphics, particularly low-resolution CGA/MDA/EGA or even VGA, will be of very limited value compared to clever use of text modes. I also always thought graphics will ~always be significantly slower - but perhaps I'm wrong here? I nevertheless believe one of the major weak points of module players out there - graphical or not - lies in usability, not eye candy.
And I really quie like the current UI, even if it might be a pain to maintain 😀

One of my personal gripes is the consistent lack of ability to do recursive directory dives and maintaining a playlist of the modules located this way, including whether and when a module was last played. If I want to listen through all the thousands of modules I have, I'd like to not have to rely only on 8.3 filenames to remember them or how far I got (between player/computer crashes, real world events, or whatever). Recursing is expensive, I realise that - but by maintaining a list of files found and only look for changes when asked to that work can be limited greatly.
There used to be an image viewer - I cannot recall the name - which did this and I remember having a cache file that was maintained successfully for several years, with thousands of entries, for precisely this purpose. It even offered file management (delete/rename/move) while playing, and even cached the destination directories I entered in case of a move, so (re)organising was incredibly easy. I have not seen anything quite like it even in modern-day applications; much less in early 90's era software.

Can't wait for the next code drop - if nothing else to get the fixes in the current rev minus the debug prints 😀

/Eirik

Hi there Itning,

I agree with you %100 about the GPL license idea...

About the GUI idea, I'm sure with what I have in mind, and some good coding, it shouldn't have any impact on the performance,
provided the GUI code for the player part of the app is coded in assembly...
and if it does, you can always keep the player in text mode, and only the configuration/file browser sport a GUI, or have 2 versions (read below).

About your file management remarks,
I could build a tree like view (like a tree directory browser) with a + and - on directories so you can collapse/uncollapse directories...
Finally, and I think this is something that FreddyV should comment on, once the GUI is finished, and there are more "hands" working on the open-source code repository,
you can add a bookmarking system, or a database driven, hierarchical bookmark system, with additional fields for each item like musical style (eg jazz, d&b, techno), etc... A bit like iTunes works, bit simple lean and mean,
with a good, fast indexed database, like BDB (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_DB), it's got APIs for nearly every language imaginable, so whether you use Turbo Pascal or C or whatever, you can use BDB,
and since all this only has to work in the user interface/configuration part, it won't impact the performance of the player.

One thing that is extremely annoying is the DOS 8.3 filename length issue. This is real pain when you're dealing with songs with the name of the author and the song in a file,
so having a bookmarking system in a database where you can enter the full, long names of the author, song name, album etc... would be extremely handy when browsing your collection...

But, I think we should focus on the basics first, and decide on a basic user interface (its important FreddyV answers my questions from my previous post before I can start doing mockups),
and, I think it will probably be really important that additional "hands" are found, people who wish to contribute and code the GUI backend, so FreddyV doesn't have to worry about all this
and can continue to work on the core player for hardware support and file type compatibility functionality and performance...

We could even code the GUI's use of the API and it's layout in such a way that you can have a GUI and Text mode version of the player, depending on your choice, and without having to develop 2 code bases,
eg, if you add a widget somewhere to enter a value, it will create a GUI widget of that type in the GUI version, and create a text-mode widget of that type in the text-mode version.

All i have to do is make sure every GUI Widget/Panel/etc.. has it's ASCII counterpart and functions the same way, with the same functions or methods (depending on the programming language used)...
Eg, if it were C++, I'd make a FloatSlider() base class, with a GUIFloatSlider() and TextFloatSlider() derived class, with the same methods, so they are identical in use.

The last time I used Turbo Pascal was when I was 11 years old or so, and I never did any OO development with it, but I'm sure that you can do the same as I read via google that TP v5.5 supports object-oriented programming...
I wouldn't use OO for the player part though, in fact, I think pure assembly language for the player part would be ideal.

I think that audio performance should never be compromised as it's the most important feature of Mod Master XT.

Cheers,
Radiance

Cheers,
Terrence

@Eirik,

8BitGuy wanted my Code for Petscii Robots port, and wanted to pay me for that.

But the port is on going and in C (Port of the amiga version in VGA), so it is no more possible....
Except if he change his mind.
Initial vision of Petscii Robot for PC was for XT, with digital Audio, the current direction if for 386/486 in VGA with no digital audio...

Except for this, the chance that a commercial software will come is really really low 😀

You are right for the graphic part.
it need lot of memory and CPU, the 2 things that is lacking the most when we are on a XT machine.

For the directory/Files, Mod Master use a Buffer file (MODM.DIR) mainly to save the settings per file.
Also, again, I did it for low end machines, so having thouzands of files on a XT computer is surely really really rare.

In the same idea, I restricted my self due to the size code and performance limits:
No interpolation, no sample>64Kb, no panning, no 16Bit Stereo.
If a huge sound quality and performance is needed, there are other player for this, and agin, even my Code USMPlay that support all the XM commands and Impulse tracker.
(For Panning, I will probably add it, it will impact the performance a lot, but not the code size)

That is why I would like to release the Audio part code, if someone want to redo an interface, do a more "High End" Version or whatever.

FreddyV wrote on 2021-12-21, 14:55:

Hi, […]
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Hi,

I still work (Really partial time) to publish Mod Master XT 1.0

For this, I need :
- A reviewed documentation.
- Remove small/cosmetics bugs in the code.
- Write the file converter software (To generate .MMM Files)
- I think I will add a .MMM Reader version only, to reduce the code size again.

No Idea when it will be published...

Next, I will more focus on the Mod Master XT "Library" / Code release, for Game/Demo developement, or if somebody want to do a graphical version :)
I target at lease Tracker + Multi channel samples or Adlib/CMS/Tandy + Multi Channel audio.
I have no plan for a .MID replay to allow to play the same music on different sound output.

The library will be for Turbo Pascal, No C unfortunately, except if somebody want to convert it in the future...

I already have a working version, but with no sample replay.

FreddyV

I have a 286-16 (SCAT chipset) with Gus classic and sb pro2 and when i have both ems and umb memory it will freeze on startup 80% of the time. If it does start, it works perfectly (had it running a 2-day playlist with no problems).

Booting with only himem -> works.

The hang is just after printing the LPT line, before detecting GUS or SB. Needs hard reset; c-a-d doesn't work.

Any ideas? :)

/Eirik

ltning wrote on 2021-12-31, 17:26:

I have a 286-16 (SCAT chipset) with Gus classic and sb pro2 and when i have both ems and umb memory it will freeze on startup 80 […]
Show full quote

FreddyV wrote on 2021-12-21, 14:55:

Hi, […]
Show full quote

Hi,

I still work (Really partial time) to publish Mod Master XT 1.0

For this, I need :
- A reviewed documentation.
- Remove small/cosmetics bugs in the code.
- Write the file converter software (To generate .MMM Files)
- I think I will add a .MMM Reader version only, to reduce the code size again.

No Idea when it will be published...

Next, I will more focus on the Mod Master XT "Library" / Code release, for Game/Demo developement, or if somebody want to do a graphical version 😀
I target at lease Tracker + Multi channel samples or Adlib/CMS/Tandy + Multi Channel audio.
I have no plan for a .MID replay to allow to play the same music on different sound output.

The library will be for Turbo Pascal, No C unfortunately, except if somebody want to convert it in the future...

I already have a working version, but with no sample replay.

FreddyV

I have a 286-16 (SCAT chipset) with Gus classic and sb pro2 and when i have both ems and umb memory it will freeze on startup 80% of the time. If it does start, it works perfectly (had it running a 2-day playlist with no problems).

Booting with only himem -> works.

The hang is just after printing the LPT line, before detecting GUS or SB. Needs hard reset; c-a-d doesn't work.

Any ideas? 😀

/Eirik

Maybe be sure you run ULTRINIT before starting Mod Master.
Mod Master also need the GUS Environment variable. (ULTRASND)

FreddyV wrote on 2022-01-03, 07:18:

ltning wrote on 2021-12-31, 17:26:

I have a 286-16 (SCAT chipset) with Gus classic and sb pro2 and when i have both ems and umb memory it will freeze on startup 80 […]
Show full quote

FreddyV wrote on 2021-12-21, 14:55:

Hi, […]
Show full quote

Hi,

I still work (Really partial time) to publish Mod Master XT 1.0

For this, I need :
- A reviewed documentation.
- Remove small/cosmetics bugs in the code.
- Write the file converter software (To generate .MMM Files)
- I think I will add a .MMM Reader version only, to reduce the code size again.

No Idea when it will be published...

Next, I will more focus on the Mod Master XT "Library" / Code release, for Game/Demo developement, or if somebody want to do a graphical version :)
I target at lease Tracker + Multi channel samples or Adlib/CMS/Tandy + Multi Channel audio.
I have no plan for a .MID replay to allow to play the same music on different sound output.

The library will be for Turbo Pascal, No C unfortunately, except if somebody want to convert it in the future...

I already have a working version, but with no sample replay.

FreddyV

I have a 286-16 (SCAT chipset) with Gus classic and sb pro2 and when i have both ems and umb memory it will freeze on startup 80% of the time. If it does start, it works perfectly (had it running a 2-day playlist with no problems).

Booting with only himem -> works.

The hang is just after printing the LPT line, before detecting GUS or SB. Needs hard reset; c-a-d doesn't work.

Any ideas? :)

/Eirik

Maybe be sure you run ULTRINIT before starting Mod Master.
Mod Master also need the GUS Environment variable. (ULTRASND)

Both are present (autoexec) and the ultrinit and sbp-set output is still visible on screen when I run modm. So that's not it :-/

Try to remove the SBPro and/or the GUS , to see if it is a conflict problem.

After the Parallel port display, Mod Master test the Tandy, then the GUS.
So, maybe an issue with the BIOS function it call for the Tandy detection ?

Did you try the older version without Tandy support ?

Can you run the TANDYDET that is in this page and show me the result ?

SBVGM (DOS) VGM Player

If a specific value is found in memory it try to enable the Tandy sound.
I can simply move this code somewhere else to do the port output only when starting the music....

FreddyV wrote on 2022-01-03, 15:31:

Can you run the TANDYDET that is in this page and show me the result ? […]
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Can you run the TANDYDET that is in this page and show me the result ?

SBVGM (DOS) VGM Player

If a specific value is found in memory it try to enable the Tandy sound.
I can simply move this code somewhere else to do the port output only when starting the music....

I'll test that as soon as I can (tonight).
I also have an MIF-IPC-A (MPU-401 controller card) installed on its default port (330) and irq (2). Could that explain the problems? I know nothing about the Tandy sound..
https://texelec.com/product/lo-tech-mif-ipc-b/

/Eirik

ltning wrote on 2022-01-03, 16:16:

I'll test that as soon as I can (tonight). I also have an MIF-IPC-A (MPU-401 controller card) installed on its default port (330 […]
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I'll test that as soon as I can (tonight).
I also have an MIF-IPC-A (MPU-401 controller card) installed on its default port (330) and irq (2). Could that explain the problems? I know nothing about the Tandy sound..
https://texelec.com/product/lo-tech-mif-ipc-b/

/Eirik

I build this special version that display the audio detect function called.

if you use it, we can see the latest function called, so the one crashing.

Hi Freddy,

just one very minor thing: would it be possible to assign the 'Enter' key to going back to the file listing (in addition to the ESC-key)?
While quickly going through a couple of files (just to hear the first few notes) it either needs two hands to use the cursor keys and ESC, or you need to aim all over the keyboard. Being able to use the cursor keys and Enter would be a huge improvement for this use-case for me 😀

And still: thank you for this great player!

FreddyV wrote on 2022-01-04, 07:55:

ltning wrote on 2022-01-03, 16:16:

I'll test that as soon as I can (tonight). I also have an MIF-IPC-A (MPU-401 controller card) installed on its default port (330 […]
Show full quote

I'll test that as soon as I can (tonight).
I also have an MIF-IPC-A (MPU-401 controller card) installed on its default port (330) and irq (2). Could that explain the problems? I know nothing about the Tandy sound..
https://texelec.com/product/lo-tech-mif-ipc-b/

/Eirik

I build this special version that display the audio detect function called.

if you use it, we can see the latest function called, so the one crashing.

So I tested - and it crashes on TDY_DetectDAC.

/Eirik

Ok it does not like the BIOS function....
And did try the small tandy detect code ?

You can use an older Mod Master XT version without tandy DAC .

FreddyV wrote on 2022-01-05, 08:32:

Ok it does not like the BIOS function....
And did try the small tandy detect code ?

You can use an older Mod Master XT version without tandy DAC .

So this is interesting.
When I run the tndydet.com before running modm, modm hangs in the same spot BUT it does not freeze the machine hard. I can hit ENTER and it returns to DOS. I can do this as many times as I like.
If I do *not* run tndydet.com first, then it freezes hard.

See screenshots.

/Eirik

I simplified the Tandy detection code, so you can test it.

FreddyV wrote on 2022-01-06, 09:05:

I simplified the Tandy detection code, so you can test it.

I have not been able to reproduce with this build, so I think there's definite improvement..? :)

/Eirik