VOGONS


First post, by Doomn00b

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EDIT2:
Updated with my build-plan and a list of games I'm interested in.

Build-plan:
--------------
OS: Dos 7.1, W98, XP, W10
MB: Portwell RUBY-9719VG2AR
CPU: Intel X5470
RAM: 8GB DDR2
GPU1 (DOS): Intel GMA X4500 (integrated)
GPU2 (W98): Radeon 9250 (pci)
GPU3 (XP32+W10x64): Geforce GTX 960 (PCI-e)
SC1 (DOS): ?
SC2: SB Audigy 2 ZS
FDD: SuperDisk LS-240
NIC: Intel 1000MT

DoS-games:
---------------
Commander Keen 3-5
Crusader: No Remorse/Regret
Doom 1-2
Duke Nukem II
Duke Nukem 3D
Dune 2
Shadow Warrior
Quake
UFO: Enemy Unknown
Loom
Indiana Jones & The Fate of Atlantis
Rise of the Triad
The Dig
Oregon Trail
System Shock

EDIT:
Right, so I've been checking into this, and I might have passed over cards which I shouldn't, since apparently there are more, and GOOD cards which are either compatible with sb/sbpro/sb16/WSS/MPU401 or having every compatibility except sb16 - but still being capable of 16-bit sound in their native mode. Any suggestions? Honestly... This is starting to make my head spin! I need ONE card to rule them all... Is it too much to ask?

----
This is something I've been going over a lot recently - I never realized how complex of a topic this is!

I myself only recently got into Retro-computing and retro pc games, so I don't have the same opinions about the cult value of certain brands, so I've been trying to instead select according to what gives either most compatibility or the most features. (sadly, the two are not exclusive)

First, I sorted the cards based on chipsets - using Gerwin's ISA sound card overview.
Sound cards - from best to worst

This then showed me which chipsets have the greatest amount of compatibility - which let me remove quite a few cards. Then, I sorted the remaining cards based on features, and came up with an ever shorter list. Still, this meant I had quite a few cards left to chose from... Enter the final steps:

Using Great Hierophant's Points-system I was then able to come up with 4 final cards, as the best picks for a newbie like me:

Vintage ISA DOS Gaming Sound Card Rankings System

MS 64 Home Studio Pro
SC-8000 PnP v3.31
ESS AudioDrive 1869
Audio Excel CMI8330

The above are the cards in question. Using his system I came to the conclusion that the Audio Excel CMI8330 was the best pick.

However, I felt that Hierophant's system was a bit too simple, so as an experiment I added another dimension: PERFORMANCE. Cards which feature Ram-slots can provide quite a bit more horse-power if one puts in a bit of extra coin - if one takes this into account, then the Maxi Sound 64 Home Studio Pro becomes the winner instead.

All this, and I'm still not quite certain which one to pick.
If it helps any, the ISA soundcard will be used in a system meant for DoS/Win98, with a minimum of 4 gb ram, Core2Quad CPU, FreeDos and in tandem with an Audigy 2 ZS or an Aureal Vortex 2.

So... what do you think? Did I sort the cards in the right way? Do you have a better suggestion(s)? Have I scored the remaining 4 cards accurately? I must admit, some of it was guesswork...

Matrix:

1. MS 64 Home Studio Pro ES1868, WBH, Dream SAM9407 Wavetable + 4MB ROM + 72-Pin RAM Slot (16MB), Daughterboard for S/PDIF […]
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1. MS 64 Home Studio Pro
ES1868, WBH, Dream SAM9407 Wavetable + 4MB ROM + 72-Pin RAM Slot (16MB), Daughterboard for S/PDIF Input/Output.

Compatibilities: Controller+Codec 16-bit 44KHz, SB/SBPro/WSS/MPU-401 compatible, Integr. OPL3 clone, PnP, dual joystick, Full-duplex, IDE

Points:
Gameport 1.25 (dual joy)
MIDI Hardware Interface 2.50
Music Synthesizer 2.25
Digital Audio Output 4.00
Performance 4.00

Total: 10/14

2. SC-8000 PnP v3.31
CS4236B, WBH, Dream SAM9233/8905 Wavetable + 1MB ROM + 72-Pin RAM Slot, IDE, volume wheel

Compatibilities: Controller+Codec 16-Bit 48KHz, SB/SBPro/WSS/MPU-401 compatible, Integr. OPL3 clone, PnP, WT digital interface, IDE

Points:
Gameport 1.00
MIDI Hardware Interface 2.50
Music Synthesizer 2.25
Digital Audio Output 3.50
Performance 4.00

Total: 9.25/13.25

3. ESS AudioDrive 1869
ES1869, WBH, line-in, microphone, CD-m, amplifier, IDE

Compatibilities: Controller+Codec 16-bit 48KHz, SB/SBPro/WSS/MPU-401 compatible, Integr. OPL3 clone, PnP, dual joystick, Full-duplex, IDE, Spatializer 3-D VBX.

Points:
Gameport 1.25 (dual joy)
MIDI Hardware Interface 2.50
Music Synthesizer 2.25
Digital Audio Output 3.75
Performance 2.00

Total: 9.75/11.75

4. Audio Excel CMI8330
CMI8330, WBH (PCB-ID: AV310)

Compatibilities: Controller+Codec 16-bit, SB/SBPro/SB16+WSS+MPU-401 compatible, Integr. OPL3 clone, PnP, S/PDIF input/output.

Points:
Gameport 1.50
MIDI Hardware Interface 2.50
Music Synthesizer 2.25
Digital Audio Output 4.00
Performance 1.00

Total: 10.25/11.25

Last edited by Doomn00b on 2019-05-05, 13:18. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 1 of 14, by gerwin

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What games do you intend to play with this system?
A Core Quad CPU seems like a mistake for a DOS/Windows 98 System. These OS-es will use only 1 core and ignore the others. Plenty of DOS games will give issues at the speeds of such a Core CPU. Generally for DOS/Win9X: in the quest for performance, the compatibility tends to get worse.
There are some people here with powerful Windows 98 Systems using exotic boards with functional ISA slots, so they will know more. But I would recommend to only go that route after building and using a more mainstream retro system for a while. Personally, for retro purposes, I tend to max out at a Pentium III.

Windows 98 comes with MS-DOS 7. They are tied together. Practically there is no reason make a multiboot with FreeDOS.

--> ISA Soundcard Overview // Doom MBF 2.04 // SetMul

Reply 2 of 14, by appiah4

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Definitely #1 or #2 due to onboard wavetables so listen to youtube videos for ESS Audiodrive ESFM and Crystal CrystalFM recordings to decide which clone you like more. Spoilers. ESFM sounds nearly identical to a well filtered OPL3, CrystalFM is a much brighter and warmer FM synthesis that I am very fond of.

That aside, your build idea for a Win9x PC is pretty unfit.

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 3 of 14, by jheronimus

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If I were to pick one single card, I would get either AWE32 or AWE64. Then add RAM, because there are some nice soundfonts for both of them — even the 8 megabyte EMU soundfont (comes on the installation CD) will make MIDI music sound great — really on par with expensive Roland/Yamaha stuff. Stock AWE soundfont is awful, though, so you'd really need to invest into memory.

AWE32 gets extra points because you can get an earlier non-PnP model with true OPL3 (like CT2760, for instance) if you care for AdLib music. Non-PnP probably only matters to people who make pure DOS machines with several soundcards, so you might not care about that. However, AWE32 is more expensive and memory for it isn't cheap either. But it's a good investment IMHO.

AWE64 is a lot more cheaper and can do pretty much anything AWE32 can — but it only has OPL3 emulation (CQM) that many people don't like. You can get AWE64 Value — there is no reason to buy the Gold edition. Memory expansion is fairly tricky with AWE64, but you can get something like a SIMMCON and a SIMM72 stick of 32 megabytes and you're all set.

SoundBlaster 32 is also an okay option — it's basically AWE64 with SIMM30 slots. Something like CT3910 would be an awesome card, but stay away from any of the AWE32 Value models — you can't expand RAM on them, so you'll be stuck with the crappy default soundfont.

And yeah, like others have said, your build plan doesn't make a lot of sense. You really should spend more time on research or you might run into a lot of issues. You can start here.

MR BIOS catalog
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Reply 4 of 14, by Doomn00b

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Thank you all for giving your input. = )

I didn't do a very good job of explaining my aim with the card, and my build in the first post though, so I'll add the full build-plan and a list of the DOS-games which I intend to play -I should have been clear that I'm aiming for a multi-boot machine, which I can use for a very wide variety of game-eras - all the way up to the lowest-end games of today.

The ISA-card is mainly for sound in dos though, hence the thread - Win9x WXP+ is fairly easy to figure out, the wild and wooly DoS-era... not so much.

Build-plan:
--------------
OS: Dos 7.1, W98, XP, W10
MB: Portwell RUBY-9719VG2AR
CPU: Intel X5470
RAM: 8GB DDR2
GPU1 (DOS): Intel GMA X4500 (integrated)
GPU2 (W98): Radeon 9250 (pci)
GPU3 (XP32+W10x64): Geforce GTX 960 (PCI-e)
SC1 (DOS): ?
SC2: SB Audigy 2 ZS
FDD: SuperDisk LS-240
NIC: Intel 1000MT

DoS-games:
---------------
Commander Keen 3-5
Crusader: No Remorse/Regret
Doom 1-2
Duke Nukem II
Duke Nukem 3D
Dune 2
Shadow Warrior
Quake
UFO: Enemy Unknown
Loom
Indiana Jones & The Fate of Atlantis
Rise of the Triad
The Dig
Oregon Trail
System Shock

Also updating the first post with this info.

Reply 5 of 14, by canthearu

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You are going to struggle getting things to work properly with 8-gig of RAM in your computer.

Windows 98 gets wonky when it sees more than 512meg RAM.

ISA sound cards may not work properly, as the chipset doesn't properly support ISA DMA signalling. (I am sure there are people with actual experience here that can clarify if I am wrong or not)

Reply 7 of 14, by Tiido

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That particular board will work with a variety of ISA sound cards when the LPC bus is configured right, i.e using my RUBYISA util. Main drawback is limited amount of IO ranges that are supported via the LPC bus so stuff like AWE32/64 cannot be used and some OPTi based cards since they have conf regs in unreachable IO ports.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜

Reply 8 of 14, by Doomn00b

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canthearu wrote:

You are going to struggle getting things to work properly with 8-gig of RAM in your computer.

Windows 98 gets wonky when it sees more than 512meg RAM.

ISA sound cards may not work properly, as the chipset doesn't properly support ISA DMA signalling. (I am sure there are people with actual experience here that can clarify if I am wrong or not)

True, it won't be easy with all that ram - But...! A fellow named Rudolph Loew over at the MSFN.org forums has invented several amazing patches, which adds higher memory-amounts for Windows 98 (up to 4 gb) as well as SATA-support and other little goodies. Of course, it's an added cost, but this is a once in a life-time build.

PC "Master Race" et c and all that.

Tiido wrote:

That particular board will work with a variety of ISA sound cards when the LPC bus is configured right, i.e using my RUBYISA util. Main drawback is limited amount of IO ranges that are supported via the LPC bus so stuff like AWE32/64 cannot be used and some OPTi based cards since they have conf regs in unreachable IO ports.

Hmm, would you happen to have a list of cards which you have tested successfully? Which IO ranges have you found to be supported? We could potentially make a list of viable cards with this info - that would be lovely.

Reply 9 of 14, by Tiido

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From readme of RUBYISA :

Exact ranges forwarded :
200...2FF - Used by SB cards and tons of other stuff
300...303 - Useful for MPU-401
310...313 - Useful for MPU-401
320...323 - Useful for MPU-401
330...333 - Useful for MPU-401
340...343 - Here because it was possible
350...353 - Here because it was possible
360...363 - Here because it was possible
370...373 - YMF71x Control registers (but those can be placed anywhere)
380...39F - AdLib and a bit extra because I could
A00...AFF - ISA PnP Data Port and internal peripherals

Everything that fits in these ranges should work. Adlib, SB/pro/16 cards are working fine, YMF71x cards are working fine (when using my SETYMF util). WSS cards aren't going to work unless their IO can be put into Axx or some other supported range, IDE headers will not work, IO cards will not work. You'll need to verify any particular card's IO resource requirements and if they can be moved to some supported range.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜

Reply 10 of 14, by clueless1

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All-in-one builds seem nice on paper and something a lot of folks on here try at one point, myself included. After all the effort though, in the end it's much easier and smooth-running to have discrete systems for different eras. At the very least, one DOS gaming build, and one semi-modern build that can handle the Win9x games on forward. Here's what I ended up with after trying your route:
-a P200MMX pure DOS build. I use this build a lot! The MMX cpu can be slowed down to play 386 and 486 era games well, and can still handle the latest DOS games.
-a P3 933 Windows ME build for some Win9x and Glide games. I have a GF3 and Voodoo2 SLI in here. I hardly use this build at all because of build 3.
-a modern Win10 PC. Most of the games I would play on build 2 play just as well and are easier to get going on this build, so long as you get GOG or Steam versions of those games. DOS is different enough from a GUI-based OS that it feels right and proper to play DOS games on there rather than through DOSBox. However, most good Win9x games run very well with GOG/Steam versions and the "magic" of feeling like you're in a different era is less pronounced between Win9x and Win10, IMO.

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
OPL3 FM vs. Roland MT-32 vs. General MIDI DOS Game Comparison
Let's benchmark our systems with cache disabled
DOS PCI Graphics Card Benchmarks

Reply 11 of 14, by BloodyCactus

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Makes no sense to me to be w98 and w10 compatible. Whats good for one is not good for the other.

--/\-[ Stu : Bloody Cactus :: [ https://bloodycactus.com :: http://kråketær.com ]-/\--

Reply 12 of 14, by matze79

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What the heck ? ehhh

https://www.retrokits.de - blog, retro projects, hdd clicker, diy soundcards etc
https://www.retroianer.de - german retro computer board

Reply 13 of 14, by Doomn00b

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Tiido wrote:
From readme of RUBYISA : […]
Show full quote

From readme of RUBYISA :

Exact ranges forwarded :
200...2FF - Used by SB cards and tons of other stuff
300...303 - Useful for MPU-401
310...313 - Useful for MPU-401
320...323 - Useful for MPU-401
330...333 - Useful for MPU-401
340...343 - Here because it was possible
350...353 - Here because it was possible
360...363 - Here because it was possible
370...373 - YMF71x Control registers (but those can be placed anywhere)
380...39F - AdLib and a bit extra because I could
A00...AFF - ISA PnP Data Port and internal peripherals

Everything that fits in these ranges should work. Adlib, SB/pro/16 cards are working fine, YMF71x cards are working fine (when using my SETYMF util). WSS cards aren't going to work unless their IO can be put into Axx or some other supported range, IDE headers will not work, IO cards will not work. You'll need to verify any particular card's IO resource requirements and if they can be moved to some supported range.

Cheers for the info, mate! = )

Will have a look at the ranges of the 4 cards in question and see if they can fit into the available space.

If I have understood it correctly, it appears as if these soundcards work with Ruby:
[add later]

BloodyCactus wrote:

Makes no sense to me to be w98 and w10 compatible. Whats good for one is not good for the other.

matze79 wrote:

What the heck ? ehhh

🤣! Well, if you disregard the actual build-plan, which soundcards which feature the highest amount of compatibility, features, and quality, would you recommend? Just in general.

Reply 14 of 14, by BloodyCactus

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Well, if you disregard the actual build-plan, which soundcards which feature the highest amount of compatibility, features, and quality, would you recommend? Just in general.

dos, awe32
win98, aureal vortex (A3D or some creative thing with EAX)
winxp/10, i'm just going to use usb to my external dac (uber bifrost) to get jitter free 192khz. (optical cables often have lots of jitter at those speeds). sound cards are pointless these days. get a av receiver, do hdmi passthrough, get a kickass amp in the process. something like this denon

--/\-[ Stu : Bloody Cactus :: [ https://bloodycactus.com :: http://kråketær.com ]-/\--