VOGONS


New sound card project: AWE64 Legacy

Topic actions

Reply 300 of 378, by SquallStrife

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
RoberMC wrote on 2020-05-12, 16:03:

Destroying original, never to be produced again, SB Awe 64 Value cards to build something so amateur and over-complicated, which offers so little improvement, if any, and it is not retro hardware anymore, over using 2 original retro sound cards in a true retro system, escapes my mind.

There are probably millions of these cards out there, and you're upset that a handful of them will be turned into improved versions of themselves? (Maxed out RAM, real OPL, intelligent MPU401, improved analogue stage)

Cry me a river!! 🤣

VogonsDrivers.com | Link | News Thread
[retro swim] | Link | Release Thread
Regular silliness on Twitch!! http://www.twitch.tv/RetroSwim (8PM Mon, Wed, Sat AEST)

Reply 301 of 378, by darry

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
RoberMC wrote on 2020-05-12, 16:03:

IMHO, as a hardware designer, if you want to recreate any hardware, you should fully re-create it. Invest money and study/decap/recreate the main custom chips, then build the rest with modern widely available parts, which will highly reduce the costs.

I am also a retro hardware lover, and even mainstream retro hardware has a value that cannot be measured in money, i love to listen retro synths and sound cards, all audio imperfections belong to them and that is what makes them so unique.

Destroying original, never to be produced again, SB Awe 64 Value cards to build something so amateur and over-complicated, which offers so little improvement, if any, and it is not retro hardware anymore, over using 2 original retro sound cards in a true retro system, escapes my mind.

No offense, but I do hope you realize that there are relatively large scale retro part harvesting operations running in China . Where do you think that so may of those supposedly "new old stock" EOL parts (like OPL3 , OPL2 chips and others) come from ?

EDIT : That said, if you or somebody else managed to decap, reverse engineer and reproduce an EMU8000 and accompanying hardware and then design and manufacture an improved FPGA-based AWE32/64 work-alike without getting sued by Creative, I would not complain . I would probably buy-in, actually .

Reply 302 of 378, by Alex_NsD

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
darry wrote on 2020-05-13, 00:12:

EDIT : That said, if you or somebody else managed to decap, reverse engineer and reproduce an EMU8000 and accompanying hardware and then design and manufacture an improved FPGA-based AWE32/64 work-alike without getting sued by Creative, I would not complain . I would probably buy-in, actually .

If reproduce the EMU8000 on FPGA, then the cost of such a card will be comparable to the wing of a Boeing. And only a few people will be able to buy such a card.

New sound card project: AWE64 Legacy
PCB Designer

Reply 303 of 378, by darry

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Alex_NsD wrote on 2020-05-13, 12:01:
darry wrote on 2020-05-13, 00:12:

EDIT : That said, if you or somebody else managed to decap, reverse engineer and reproduce an EMU8000 and accompanying hardware and then design and manufacture an improved FPGA-based AWE32/64 work-alike without getting sued by Creative, I would not complain . I would probably buy-in, actually .

If reproduce the EMU8000 on FPGA, then the cost of such a card will be comparable to the wing of a Boeing. And only a few people will be able to buy such a card.

I honestly have no idea about the complexity of the EMU8000 relative to other already implemented cores, nor do I have any experience of HW design or FPGAs, that said, the AWE32 launched in 1994, so the tech is at least 26 years old . If complete game console systems, including their audio synthesis engines, from roughly the same era (Analogue's Super NT, for example) have been successfully implemented, why would it be financially prohibitive to do so for the EMU8000 (now or in the
future) ?

EDIT : Just too be clear, I definitely do not know enough about this stuff to start an argument , I am just curious as to what would make an EMU8000 so difficult/costly to implement in an FPGA ?

Reply 304 of 378, by Tiido

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

EMU8000 is a fairly complex chip, getting accurate emulation of it going is probably a significant challenge. Decapping will probably reveal a highly complicated thing that's gonna take ages to decode. Reimplementation according to existing specification with room for error is certainly doable and will fit in a low end FPGA but it is still lot of effort for little gain (couple months of work for sure). There isn't much that uses EMU8000 as far as games go, and in windows it is only a glorified sound font playback device and there's far better things to use in windows for that purpose.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜

Reply 305 of 378, by truemaster

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

for me awe64 legacy will be a retro card with modern redesign. all things on this card are and will be retro. an fpga awe64 on the other hand (if ever be) will be an emulator, without a drop of retro in it

Reply 306 of 378, by appiah4

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

An FPGA is not an emulator. (Nor is it genuine hardware but I digress..)

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 307 of 378, by Velociraptor

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
appiah4 wrote on 2020-05-13, 17:24:

An FPGA is not an emulator. (Nor is it genuine hardware but I digress..)

It's very difficult to exactly describe FPGA and I've yet to hear anyone come out with a brilliant definition. If you call it emulation you don't do it justice, and if you call it real hardware you may be kind of right in spirit... but absolutely incorrect 😀 I have a MiSTer and people have asked me to explain what it is and I've yet to think of a good way to do so.

Reply 309 of 378, by LightStruk

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
Velociraptor wrote on 2020-05-24, 21:58:

It's very difficult to exactly describe FPGA and I've yet to hear anyone come out with a brilliant definition. If you call it emulation you don't do it justice, and if you call it real hardware you may be kind of right in spirit... but absolutely incorrect 😀 I have a MiSTer and people have asked me to explain what it is and I've yet to think of a good way to do so.

An FPGA in this case is a reimplementation of an earlier piece of hardware. FPGA reimplementations strive to be faithful and accurate to the original hardware, and fortunately they can be updated as the developers fix bugs in the implementation.

Reply 310 of 378, by daikatana_

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
SquallStrife wrote on 2020-05-12, 23:53:
RoberMC wrote on 2020-05-12, 16:03:

Destroying original, never to be produced again, SB Awe 64 Value cards to build something so amateur and over-complicated, which offers so little improvement, if any, and it is not retro hardware anymore, over using 2 original retro sound cards in a true retro system, escapes my mind.

There are probably millions of these cards out there, and you're upset that a handful of them will be turned into improved versions of themselves? (Maxed out RAM, real OPL, intelligent MPU401, improved analogue stage)

Cry me a river!! 🤣

Would you destroy London, Rome or Prague just to turn these cities into an "improved version"?

Game MIDI soundtracks

Retro games and HW reviews

Reply 311 of 378, by darry

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
daikatana_ wrote on 2020-05-28, 22:47:
SquallStrife wrote on 2020-05-12, 23:53:
RoberMC wrote on 2020-05-12, 16:03:

Destroying original, never to be produced again, SB Awe 64 Value cards to build something so amateur and over-complicated, which offers so little improvement, if any, and it is not retro hardware anymore, over using 2 original retro sound cards in a true retro system, escapes my mind.

There are probably millions of these cards out there, and you're upset that a handful of them will be turned into improved versions of themselves? (Maxed out RAM, real OPL, intelligent MPU401, improved analogue stage)

Cry me a river!! 🤣

Would you destroy London, Rome or Prague just to turn these cities into an "improved version"?

An AWE64 Value is not a historical place with unique architecture, art and historical artifacts . Let's keep this in perspective .

Reply 312 of 378, by SquallStrife

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
daikatana_ wrote on 2020-05-28, 22:47:

Would you destroy London, Rome or Prague just to turn these cities into an "improved version"?

Are you serious?? 🤣

VogonsDrivers.com | Link | News Thread
[retro swim] | Link | Release Thread
Regular silliness on Twitch!! http://www.twitch.tv/RetroSwim (8PM Mon, Wed, Sat AEST)

Reply 313 of 378, by daikatana_

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

I consider an AWE64 a part of history and even though destroying some of them means it will help creating a better version, it still feels wrong and unnecessary.

Game MIDI soundtracks

Retro games and HW reviews

Reply 315 of 378, by hard1k

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

I'm really sorry to hurt your feelings for AWE64 Value cards, guys. Why don't you establish some AWE64 Preservation Foundation and make your own thread about the threat of their extinction?

New sound card project: AWE64 Legacy
Please have a look at my wishlist (hosted at Amibay)

Reply 316 of 378, by TechieDude

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
daikatana_ wrote on 2020-05-28, 22:47:

Would you destroy London, Rome or Prague just to turn these cities into an "improved version"?

😳
Did you seriously just compare cities to sound cards?! Seriously, that must have been the lamest comparison ever. Look, I get it if you don't want the original AWE64 Value cards destroyed for such a project, but there are plenty. Besides, Sound Blaster cards aren't that great. Especially AWE64 Value. Also, as I like to say, If it weren't for Creative, it would have been for someone else, like MediaVision, Avance, Aureal etc.

hard1k wrote on 2020-05-28, 23:24:

I'm really sorry to hurt your feelings for AWE64 Value cards, guys. Why don't you establish some AWE64 Preservation Foundation and make your own thread about the threat of their extinction?

Had me on the floor there 🤣

Reply 317 of 378, by daikatana_

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
hard1k wrote on 2020-05-28, 23:24:

I'm really sorry to hurt your feelings for AWE64 Value cards, guys. Why don't you establish some AWE64 Preservation Foundation and make your own thread about the threat of their extinction?

Yeah, I'm going to buy any AWE64 I'll come across to save them all.

Game MIDI soundtracks

Retro games and HW reviews

Reply 318 of 378, by hard1k

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Totally legitimate! Any action that prevents them from being recycled is good imho, preventive hoarding is absolutely fine too.

Speaking serious, don't worry that much. Our project is expected to have a PCB count of 50 at most (could lead to a second batch of another 50), so that won't hurt the existing population much.

New sound card project: AWE64 Legacy
Please have a look at my wishlist (hosted at Amibay)

Reply 319 of 378, by SquallStrife

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
daikatana_ wrote on 2020-05-28, 23:40:

Yeah, I'm going to buy any AWE64 I'll come across to save them all.

That seems awfully spiteful, but you do you.

Edit: That being said... While I think hoarding any retro hardware is selfish and spiteful, I agree with hard1k that I'd rather they were hoarded than bought up by scrappers.

VogonsDrivers.com | Link | News Thread
[retro swim] | Link | Release Thread
Regular silliness on Twitch!! http://www.twitch.tv/RetroSwim (8PM Mon, Wed, Sat AEST)