VOGONS


Cloning the AdLib Gold Surround Sound Module

Topic actions

Reply 40 of 72, by JimWest

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

I don't know the ssi-2001 project on amibay. But I definitely don't want to rip anyone off.
Everyone is free to buy the module for the requested price on eBay and receive it quickly. A price proposal is also possible.
Or you just wait until I have built more modules ...

Reply 41 of 72, by matze79

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Yeah one guy buyed the SSI 2001 here for cheap and offered it on amibay for several hundreds.
That was the case back then.

Nothing to complain, you can sell for what ever price you want.

https://dosreloaded.de - The German Retro DOS PC Community
https://www.retroianer.de - under constructing since ever

Co2 - for a endless Summer

Reply 42 of 72, by derSammler

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
JimWest wrote on 2020-06-03, 19:59:

I don't know the ssi-2001 project on amibay. But I definitely don't want to rip anyone off.
Everyone is free to buy the module for the requested price on eBay and receive it quickly. A price proposal is also possible.
Or you just wait until I have built more modules ...

I hope you are aware of two things, since you are from Germany: first, you make profit with this, so you have to pay taxes on the profit and also need to conduct trade. Otherwise you are comitting fiscal evasion, which is not a trivial action in Germany. You can easily go to jail for fiscal evasion.

Second, bringing self-made hardware into circulation by selling to end-users this way is not allowed in Germany (in the whole EU, actually). You need to prove compliance to RoHS and other directives, you need to include a German manual, you have to follow trade marks (you can't use the Ad Lib name or logo without permission) and dozens of other things.

If you really want to sell this and did not just make one for yourself, try finding a distributor (like Serdaco BVBA, or maybe even individual Computers in Germany - though Jens probably doesn't care about PC stuff), or only sell kits with no profit at all.

Reply 43 of 72, by Doornkaat

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Privately selling your own single prototype board does not involve the same standards and regulations as selling (small) series electronics on a commercial basis.
The question of taxes and the commercial nature of selling boards in the quantities that are to be expected here is not answered easily and German laws are very vague in this area. Having 20 PCBs produced per year at 30€ ea. and selling them at 50€ ea. is probably not going to warrant applying for a small business and the tax office is probably going to view this as a hobby.
I would personally advise against selling small series on Ebay or similar platforms since this gives the impression of commercial trade. It is better to sell within the communities and to wait for a certain amount of requests, have PCBs made and sell them on at a small expense allowance as this is again appears like a private endeavour rather than a commercial undertaking.
Protection of the AdLib brand and logo for sound and tone generating computer parts in Germany has been deleted in 2008. There are others using the Adlib brand name but probably not in a similar enough capacity to warrant any problems.
https://register.dpma.de/DPMAregister/marke/r … ster/1157549/DE
Still if you're going small series on your own the fundamental concern voiced in derSammler's post is valid but there are ways to circumvent those when selling at low profit in the quantities that are to be expected here.
Of course I recommend consulting a law professional rather than relying on the opinion of some guy on the web. This is a private evaluation and does not represent or substitute professional legal council.

Reply 44 of 72, by JimWest

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Thank you for your objection and helpful information!
I do not plan to sell the module commercially. It's just a hobby.
The goal was actually that every AdLib Gold owner should have the opportunity to try out the surround module.
Since I don't want any difficulties, I will not sell the module.
I'm sorry for everyone who waited for the module, it remains a proof of concept.

Reply 45 of 72, by Benedikt

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

You can still sell small quantities (i.e. your stock) of PCBs, kits or partially assembled kits without problems.
And, as far as taxation is concerned, occasionally selling something for profit does not mean that you are running a business.
There is no requirement for people to privately sell things at a loss, only, nor would it make sense, because ultimately, not even that could prove that you are not running a business.
The tax situation itself is actually crystal clear: No VAT for private sales. The question of what exactly is private and when it becomes a business is where things get fuzzy.
(Standard disclaimer: I'm just a random person on the internet, not a lawyer.)

Reply 46 of 72, by EmpireOfScrap

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Hi,

While I understand and respect that you are no longer interested in selling this board, I am wondering if you would be able to help me out with the values, so I can build my own?
Alternatively I would even be grateful of high-res photos of the original board you used to make yours.

I just got an Adlib Gold today and would like to build my own surround sound module as well.

Thanks a lot in advance!

Reply 47 of 72, by Jo22

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

I share the point of view of the previous posters. Selling kits or half-assembled units or components on a small scale is not the same as running a business with actual "products".
Also, a small business has some differences to a normal business, I suppose.

Being a "Kleinunternehmer", also, I believe.
Especially in conjunction with taxes.
Someone also can be "selbständig" and/or run an IT bureau (Informatisches Büro etc).
For this, a "Gewerbeanmeldung" might be required.
Also, if someone operates within a school activity or a working group, things may be different also. Depending on the "product", a distributor can also be used to perform the selling. Say, a computer store or a retro-oriented on-line shop. Just keep in mind thst the device must comply to todays standards then. CE sign, lead-free solder, German "manual" (an one-page leaflet will also do) etc etc.

Taxes are mainly relevant in case of profits.
For both practice and intention.
If someone looses money or gains only a tiny bit through the selling, then there's nothing to be worried, because the person in question then effectively doesn't betray/hurt anyone, after all (no bad intention, no profit) . It's mainly important to spend some thoughts on what "business" model fits best before selling anything.
Anyway, I'm just a random person on the www.
I replied here to provide some thoughts that can and should be double-checked.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 48 of 72, by vetz

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Too bad if fear of taxes real or not will let a project like this not get off the ground. While I'm not from Germany, I checked the laws/taxes where I live and a project/product like this would have no issue. It would be covered as "hobby" and you're allowed to sell as much as you want (no set limit) as long as its not seen as a business (they mention people who make clothes, wood figures, etc as examples). Germany must have something similar to cover all these grandmothers selling their knitted clothes on the local marked?

3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)
3D Acceleration Comparison Episodes

Reply 49 of 72, by Boohyaka

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

In Switzerland you can be an independent "hobbyist" and seller and you don't need to report anything nor pay any taxes up to 100K profit a year. You don't even have to setup an official company at the commercial register.

At 100k/y the fun starts: commercial register, obligation to apply and pay VAT, all kind of required insurance (loss of income, accident, blablabla).

I'm well into it currently as my wife recently quit her job to start her own independent activity, so I had to look all that shit up.

I'm pretty sure Germany has similar laws, maybe with a lower threshold? I can't see any developed country willing to waste time and money getting after every single person selling their craft in limited quantities, makes no sense.

@JimWest I remember our initial emails where you told me about this project you were working on...I'm sad it had to end that way 🙁 I hope you can find the motivation to get back to it. I don't think those "fiscal fears" are warranted at all.

Reply 50 of 72, by Shreddoc

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

Imo, if a person with high skill and specialist equipment, spends (I guess??) several hours making each card by hand, then Fair Market Value for the Labour alone must be quite a high cost.

Add in research, plans, parts, shipping, and administration time/costs, you're surely at minimum 200 Euro immediately, just to break even - no profit, but merely "average recompense for time spent working + materials used".

Small-quantity high-quality craftspeople have the same dilemma everywhere, leading to (unfairly!) feeling embarrassed to even offer a good, at the high price which realities dictate.

Sometimes the public can see those prices and, mistakenly, assume there is high profit being made. The reality is more often a low wage akin to the pay for rote labouring.

Reply 51 of 72, by vetz

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
Shreddoc wrote on 2020-11-06, 12:24:
Imo, if a person with high skill and specialist equipment, spends (I guess??) several hours making each card by hand, then Fair […]
Show full quote

Imo, if a person with high skill and specialist equipment, spends (I guess??) several hours making each card by hand, then Fair Market Value for the Labour alone must be quite a high cost.

Add in research, plans, parts, shipping, and administration time/costs, you're surely at minimum 200 Euro immediately, just to break even - no profit, but merely "average recompense for time spent working + materials used".

Small-quantity high-quality craftspeople have the same dilemma everywhere, leading to (unfairly!) feeling embarrassed to even offer a good, at the high price which realities dictate.

Sometimes the public can see those prices and, mistakenly, assume there is high profit being made. The reality is more often a low wage akin to the pay for rote labouring.

Yup, that is why this falls under "hobby" category, makes no financial sense otherwise in terms of payment pr hour spent. My mom loves to knit clothes, and she spends weeks on each part and she sells them for cost of material + price of a good bottle of wine.

3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)
3D Acceleration Comparison Episodes

Reply 52 of 72, by Shreddoc

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

Hand-making multiple copies of the same circuit board at cost-price for relative strangers on the internet is a rare-ish hobby, I guess, but not unheard-of.

Not unlike knitting, it's just moving some pointy things around in certain, precise places. 😀

Reply 53 of 72, by EmpireOfScrap

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

F-ck it, made my own. 😁

gold_1.jpeg
Filename
gold_1.jpeg
File size
773.53 KiB
Views
122 views
File license
CC-BY-4.0
ed1799b2-f31b-405a-8d96-a4592e910989.jpeg
Filename
ed1799b2-f31b-405a-8d96-a4592e910989.jpeg
File size
312.79 KiB
Views
108 views
File license
CC-BY-4.0
adlib_thanks.jpeg
Filename
adlib_thanks.jpeg
File size
250.44 KiB
Views
122 views
File license
CC-BY-4.0

Also thanks to JimWest for showing us first that we could indeed make a replica of this that would work, even if your project ended up falling flat 🙁

Coming soon™

Reply 57 of 72, by keropi

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

it is very nice indeed!
if only we had a bunch of golds 🤣 🤣 🤣

🎵 PCMIDI mpu site buy+info
🎧 WIP Orpheus soundcard site
💻 WTB Amstrad PC7486SLC-33 system