PARUS wrote on 2020-02-15, 04:42:

Intel486dx33, Do I need a Gravis Ultra sound ?

Lol. If he'd saved 50 cents a day since the last time he asked the exact same question, he'd have enough to buy a GUS.

fitzpatr wrote on 2020-02-15, 02:24:

I must have missed the thread. May I have a link to it, please, Cloudschatze?

It was here.

boxpressed wrote on 2020-02-15, 06:31:

PARUS wrote on 2020-02-15, 04:42:

Intel486dx33, Do I need a Gravis Ultra sound ?

Lol. If he'd saved 50 cents a day since the last time he asked the exact same question, he'd have enough to buy a GUS.

If he had a dollar for every identical thread he's created, he'd be rich.

640K!enough wrote on 2020-02-15, 06:40:

fitzpatr wrote on 2020-02-15, 02:24:

I must have missed the thread. May I have a link to it, please, Cloudschatze?

It was here.

Thanks!

BloodyCactus wrote on 2020-02-14, 23:36:

mpe wrote on 2020-02-14, 21:58:

GF1 is a 1992 chip. None of the other superior wavetable chipsets existed back then.

just for the record, the EMU8000 chip existed in 1991, E-MU were putting them in all their synths before they made the wavetable card. The first version was 1988/1989 for the proteus/1.

Wait a moment. Do you have any evidence the EMU8000 existed in 1991 let alone in 1988/89? EMU8000 had like 500k transistors. Would have been a big hit and a bit ahead Moore's Law in 1988.

Protheus/1 was't a sound card.But never mind. I am almost sure there wasn't any version of EMU8000 in it. Just maybe some other protochip. In fact David Rossum in this interview stated he developed EMU8000 for Creative and he experienced some resistance within E-mu against using it. That doesn't sound like acknowledging EMU8000 in 1988.

Since this thread was about GUS, I'd like to mention an earlier thread that's also GUS related.
Re: Games that sound best with GUS?

It also makes clear/points out that not all games sound(ed) automagically "better" on the GUS.
Some game engines did provide better stereo sepparation on, say, the "noise blaster" and the SoundScape, for example.

Edit: Speaking of sound quality, the SoundScape and its compatible successors (AudioPCI ES137x) have not so bad DACs, either.
What they do lack is native Sound Blaster compatibility. They also have the worst sounding FM imitation (ear bleeding).

If paired with a good, stand-alone OPL3 card or ISA-based Sound Blaster Pro/Windows Sound System compatible card,
it can bserve as a nice secondary card that has crystal clear sound and some affordable, wavetable-based MIDI.

I think Gravis Ultrasound is overrated.
Its a cool Card with nice Features.

But which software really use all of them ? only the Demoscene exploited the Card to full potential.
properly a handful games too.

Which developer spends time on such a Thing if the rest of the World speaks Sound Blaster ?

For the Gamer.. a SB Compatible Card is a much better Choice.

matze79 wrote on 2020-02-15, 12:20:

I think Gravis Ultrasound is overrated. Its a cool Card with nice Features. […]
Show full quote

I think Gravis Ultrasound is overrated.
Its a cool Card with nice Features.

But which software really use all of them ? only the Demoscene exploited the Card to full potential.
properly a handful games too.

That's actually quite an endorsement. Yes, it doesn't quite work as the SB alternative. It was a unique proposition with unique feature set.

GUS doesn't work as the only card for a gamer. Ideally you have a SB-compatible next to it to avoid the ugly emulation tools and only use it when supported. That's why the concept of GUS ACE is so attractive....

mpe wrote on 2020-02-15, 09:50:

BloodyCactus wrote on 2020-02-14, 23:36:

mpe wrote on 2020-02-14, 21:58:

GF1 is a 1992 chip. None of the other superior wavetable chipsets existed back then.

just for the record, the EMU8000 chip existed in 1991, E-MU were putting them in all their synths before they made the wavetable card. The first version was 1988/1989 for the proteus/1.

Wait a moment. Do you have any evidence the EMU8000 existed in 1991 let alone in 1988/89? EMU8000 had like 500k transistors. Would have been a big hit and a bit ahead Moore's Law in 1988.

Protheus/1 was't a sound card.But never mind. I am almost sure there wasn't any version of EMU8000 in it. Just maybe some other protochip. In fact David Rossum in this interview stated he developed EMU8000 for Creative and he experienced some resistance within E-mu against using it. That doesn't sound like acknowledging EMU8000 in 1988.

It might be a reference to the Turtle Beach Multisound (original) which used EMU technology from the Proteus line. That was a soundcard released circa 1991. Emu proteus synths date back to the late 80s, so a timeline exists for this technology. These chipsets might not be an exact EMU8000, but historically derived from Proteus/ Emulator.

j^aws wrote on 2020-02-15, 16:02:

mpe wrote on 2020-02-15, 09:50:

BloodyCactus wrote on 2020-02-14, 23:36:

just for the record, the EMU8000 chip existed in 1991, E-MU were putting them in all their synths before they made the wavetable card. The first version was 1988/1989 for the proteus/1.

Wait a moment. Do you have any evidence the EMU8000 existed in 1991 let alone in 1988/89? EMU8000 had like 500k transistors. Would have been a big hit and a bit ahead Moore's Law in 1988.

Protheus/1 was't a sound card.But never mind. I am almost sure there wasn't any version of EMU8000 in it. Just maybe some other protochip. In fact David Rossum in this interview stated he developed EMU8000 for Creative and he experienced some resistance within E-mu against using it. That doesn't sound like acknowledging EMU8000 in 1988.

It might be a reference to the Turtle Beach Multisound (original) which used EMU technology from the Proteus line. That was a soundcard released circa 1991. Emu proteus synths date back to the late 80s, so a timeline exists for this technology. These chipsets might not be an exact EMU8000, but historically derived from Proteus/ Emulator.

In that same interview Dave says the emu8k is a cost reduced G-Chip and we know the G-Chip was in the Proteus/1 in 89.

I cant find a good picture of a proteus/1 motherboard 🙁 and I dont have one anymore. (I only still have a Proteus 2500 left).

Heres a 1990 week 02 G-chip, pre emu8k revision. https://i.imgur.com/34d8u0f.jpg on I think a proteus/3 module. You can see this revision of the chip is smaller than the final revision. I believe its a G-1 revision. You can see its slightly smaller than a final emu8000 chip.

Heres a 1991 G-Chip https://i.imgur.com/uNnbHOl.jpg this is on an Amiga sound card that used the 8801 wavetable card.

Some TB multisound cards had the early versions of the EMU8000 G-Chip.

eg: https://www.wavetable.nl/wp-content/uploads/T … -MultiSound.jpg

http://alasir.com/software/multisound/multiso … nd_classic.jpeg

So, I cant find images to substantiate an 89 date code of the gchip, but week 2 of 1990 is pretty dang close.

Differrent fabs put different ic numbers so you see IC367, IC376, IC404,IC405 from OKI, AMI, Toshiba, VLSI. IC376/IC404/IC405 are same chip. IC405 is when you first see EMU8000 branding but thats only after creative bought them out. all emu8000 branded ones I've seen also carry the CT1971 IC number from Creative.

I agree that the 1989 gchip isnt an emu8000 chip, so I'll conceed there.

What I see on some boards above is the IC376 which is the same chip as on the original WaveBlaster and predecessor of the EMU8000 (not an early version of it).

There is no dispute that evolution of these early chips eventually lead to the EMU8000. I would rather say that the EMU8000 used some tech from earlier chips rather than that Proteus or some other products used a version of EMU8000. Just like I feel it is more apropriate to say that the Pentium is based on x86 technology rather than that the IBM PC XT used an early version of the Pentium chip...

Is sample loading to RAM where to draw a line here?

mpe wrote on 2020-02-15, 19:36:

What I see on some boards above is the IC376 which is the same chip as on the original WaveBlaster and predecessor of the EMU8000 (not an early version of it).

There is no dispute that evolution of these early chips eventually lead to the EMU8000. I would rather say that the EMU8000 used some tech from earlier chips rather than that Proteus or some other products used a version of EMU8000. Just like I feel it is more apropriate to say that the Pentium is based on x86 technology rather than that the IBM PC XT used an early version of the Pentium chip...

Is sample loading to RAM where to draw a line here?

EMUs Proteus line (romplers) was derived from their Emulator line (samplers). Romplers are Samplers with limited functionality. Depends where you want to draw the line. The soundfont technology in EMU8000 is essentially the ability to play samples, which EMU were world renowned for with their Emulator samplers. You can look at the EMU8k as a cheaper and more limited home version.

The Waveblaster and EMU SoundEngine (has chorus and reverb) use a similar chipset to the EMU8000, but are limited to ROMs. If you want to stick to computers, the Amiga and its Paula chipset had the capability to play samples in 1985 with the A1000. So, depends where you want to draw the line. Turtle Beach Multisound was 1991, not a sampler, but arguably better sounding than the GUS of 1992.

If it is not a sampler, it's no comparison to a GUS. To have full control over the sampling engine is as much of an advantage over all the General Midi player as pixel shaders in the GPU world are over fixed function shaders that preceded it. The GUS wasn't overrated at all, it was under utilised. Now I understand that completely, because no developer was going to put so much effort in such a small user base, and Gravis was not particularly helpful to aid the adoption. It took a bunch of mad hobbyists to exploit the potential of the GUS to the max. I understand that game developers chose to use GM as a general music platform that works on all available hardware at the time, and in that context the GUS was not a great proposition, especially when their software was so lacking and the business decision to omit SoundBlaster compatibility.

^^ The string of replies started with this:

*wavetable chipsets*

For 1992, the GUS apparently had no peers. We weren't discussing samplers.

OK. It was probably incorrect to say that there was no competition in wavetable chipsets in 92. There were some really good solutions especially in professional segment.

so much misinformation in the last few posts.

mpe wrote:

What I see on some boards above is the IC376 which is the same chip as on the original WaveBlaster and predecessor of the EMU8000 (not an early version of it).

IC376, IC404, IC405/EMU8000 ARE IDENTICAL CHIPS. IC376 is fabbed by AMI, IC404 is fabbed by OKI. IC405 has creative branding. They are the same chip!.

mpe wrote:

I would rather say that the EMU8000 used some tech from earlier chips rather than that Proteus or some other products used a version of EMU8000.

All E-MU Proteus systems from 1991 onwards 100% had EMU8000 in it. Proteus/1 from 1990 had its parent which yes, was not the EMU8000 chip.

j^aws wrote:

The Waveblaster and EMU SoundEngine (has chorus and reverb) use a similar chipset to the EMU8000, but are limited to ROMs

oh for FFS. Its the same chip. Its not limited to ROM. The Waveblaster had no need for RAM, as thats not what the Waveblaster was made for, so no ram is wired up.

j^aws wrote:

Turtle Beach Multisound was 1991, not a sampler, but arguably better sounding than the GUS of 1992.

yes. sigh. it had the EMU8000 chip on it but no ram so could not play user loaded samples

digistorm wrote:

If it is not a sampler, it's no comparison to a GUS.

what? this statement makes no sense.

j^aws wrote:

For 1992, the GUS apparently had no peers. We weren't discussing samplers.

In 1992 the Amiga One Stop Music Shop card with the em8000 chip was released with... (are you ready for it)... 64kb ram 😀 which makes the gus 512kb look huge.

The GUS in 1992 as a sound card had no peers, the GF1 IC on the other hand, did indeed.

Yup.... 1992 is what games the GUS is for. Possible into 1993. As I mentioned. The GUS is for a really small number of games.
I think the GUS is for those that are really into a select few games (counting 1989 to present). Games that were released in 1992 and 1993.
Else it speaks to those that have personal nostalgic attachment to the card. Like me. And yet I have no need for it.
I think a good SB-Pro compatible card, with OPL chip or core and a Dreamblaster board attached are a way better choice.
Heck... Even one of those AWE cards are a better choice, even if I truly and deeply hate the Guitar on those cards.
Duke3D sounds horrible on any AWE card, and the Dreamblaster beats it by miles.

Looking at the prices versus what you get, then get an MT32 or SC55 for the same money. (Or both if you are in luck)

BloodyCactus wrote on 2020-02-15, 22:09:

j^aws wrote:

The Waveblaster and EMU SoundEngine (has chorus and reverb) use a similar chipset to the EMU8000, but are limited to ROMs

oh for FFS. Its the same chip. Its not limited to ROM. The Waveblaster had no need for RAM, as thats not what the Waveblaster was made for, so no ram is wired up.

You're confusing chipset with a specific IC when I was differentiating a rompler (Waveblaster and SoundEngine) from a sampler. I'm not refuting the sampling capabilities of the EMU8000 IC (AWE cards play from RAM as well) .

BloodyCactus wrote on 2020-02-14, 17:41:

uh.. emu8000 streams data and mixes in hardware.. it does the same thing as the GF1 + Interwave chips... ICS Wavefront on TB cards, SAME DEAL!

The GUS started life as a sampler, but it can function as an enhanced PCM device augmented with polyphonic hardware mixing, much like the MOS Paula. The EMU8k was a sampler chipset and not particularly conducive to straight PCM playback to the best of my knowledge..

Can you point me to an example (from the demo scene, for instance) of an EMU8k being able to stream channels from system RAM, mix, and play in real time or near real time? It certainly could perform some operations in real time on live audio (FM SFX on the AWE64), so I'm honestly interested to know.

If you are just after a good version of the SB2.0, get a blasterboard!

BLASTERBOARD : A new SB 2.0-compatible ISA sound card

Uses a small microcontroller to emulate the SB2.0 and a real OPL2. Then has an actual high quality output section to mix the sound together so it isn't a noiseblaster!

gdjacobs wrote on 2020-02-15, 23:15:

Can you point me to an example (from the demo scene, for instance) of an EMU8k being able to stream channels from system RAM, mix, and play in real time or near real time?

I don't think anybody claimed EMU8000 can do it from the system RAM - it would require bus mastering, which is problematic with ISA, and AFAIK only used by some SCSI and Fast Ethernet cards.

EMU8000, however, can do it from the sound card's RAM - and there's a bunch of MOD players for AWE making use of this.

Both GF1 and EMU8000 are based on the same idea, differences are about the amount of supported memory (1 MB vs. 32 MB), and mixing frequency (44 kHz up to 14 channels only, vs. 44 kHz always).