There is no perfect sound card. It's what makes dos gaming so fun!

Generally if you can use midi, it will sound best. Followed by genuine opl3. Digital sound is for effects and maybe cd music playback.

You sound like you are about to go down a rabbit hole...I would start getting familiar with using dosBOX with a midi emulator like MUNT for some mt32 support.

One problem with hardware midi is no sound card supports intelligent mode midi, meaning you are looking at other expensive options. For example, I use an AWE32 alongside a PCmidi card connected to a 5 stack of midi devices, plus a pc for running midi emulator software...all routes through the roland mpu104/105 combo...but to are probably not going that far. Like I said it's a rabbit hole.

Strongly recommend watching some videos on philscomputerlab before asking any more questions.

kolderman wrote on 2020-03-10, 02:34:

There is no perfect sound card. It's what makes dos gaming so fun! […]
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There is no perfect sound card. It's what makes dos gaming so fun!

Generally if you can use midi, it will sound best. Followed by genuine opl3. Digital sound is for effects and maybe cd music playback.

You sound like you are about to go down a rabbit hole...I would start getting familiar with using dosBOX with a midi emulator like MUNT for some mt32 support.

One problem with hardware midi is no sound card supports intelligent mode midi, meaning you are looking at other expensive options. For example, I use an AWE32 alongside a PCmidi card connected to a 5 stack of midi devices, plus a pc for running midi emulator software...all routes through the roland mpu104/105 combo...but to are probably not going that far. Like I said it's a rabbit hole.

Strongly recommend watching some videos on philscomputerlab before asking any more questions.

Thanks.

As you suggested, I watched his videos and did a bit more research.

It seems that a Wave Blaster device will help (though they all sound a bit different) since I don't have space for a MIDI setup.

Most of the games I plan to play don't support anything newer than a Sound Blaster 16 either. An early version of that without the 'cost cuts' he mentioned should work for my needs.

Still open for suggestions if anyone else wants to chime in.

In really REALLY basic terms
-OPL is also referred to as adlib in some games. The predecessor to Sound Blaster (think Nintendo chiptune sound)
-FM is the "Sound Blaster or compatible" option, plays digitised sound, eg Dooms more realistic sound or speech
-Midi/Wave blaster is the music in later games, Sound Blaster AWE was an alternative, many many options here.

in less basic terms
-OPL/Adlib use either a Yamaha OPL 2 or 3 chip. It doesn't really matter which for gaming. What may matter is later sound blasters and some other cards used an OPL clone, how good/bad these sound is personal preference.
-Sound Blaster Compatible is a very loose term, it may be 8 or 16 bit, left/right speakers swapped or not in stereo at all. Depending on your games will depend how much of this matters, even a lot of late dos games were still 8bit mono
-Waveblaster technically the name of Creatives own internal midi module much like the Dreamblaster, however it came to be an alternate name to a midi daughterboard header as well.

As a starter card I would go with a SoundBlaster SB16 or Vibra16. They will be the easiest to set up. Once you have a bit more of a feel of what you are after you can start to look for alternatives.
Note they are not perfect cards some have issues with external midi card if you end up getting one, some have CQM which is a OPL clone, but you may find these things don't matter, I've a SB16 in 1 PC and perfectly happy with it.
The Yamaha YMF based soundcards are also popular and common, they have a true OPL chip, support external midi but only SB Pro compatibility.
All isa cards are noisy though. when it comes down to snr they are all terrible when comparing to later pci cards so don't expect crystal clear sound from any of them

chinny22 wrote on 2020-03-10, 12:27:

-FM is the "Sound Blaster or compatible" option, plays digitised sound, eg Dooms more realistic sound or speech

FM is actually Frequency Modulation and a broader term for the method used to synthesize sounds that also includes Yamaha's OPL synthesizers. Sound Blaster digital audio is another thing completely. Otherwise, this is a good summary.

You are of course right, my summary is more aimed using typical setup options in games as bullet points rather then 100% accuracy, We'll save that for when OP has 1/2 dozen PC's with multiple sound cards 😉

Lylat1an wrote on 2020-03-10, 02:00:

I've read that DOSBox emulates a Sound Blaster 16, and my games sound really good in there. But when I try the games on real ha […]
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I've read that DOSBox emulates a Sound Blaster 16, and my games sound really good in there. But when I try the games on real hardware they don't sound as good. (Usually like some audio 'tracks' or 'layers' aren't playing)

Probably because I don't know what features to look for.

I'm not entirely sure what FM, OPL3, MIDI, and other technologies are, but I'd like to have all of them on one card rather than configuring two cards in one machine if that's possible.

I assume I'll need a Sound Blaster card with a Wave Blaster header and a Serda DreamBlaster S2 as well, but will I also need an external MIDI device to accurately reproduce the audio quality of DOSBox?

A single card...

Given what DOSBox actually does for you, that's pushing it 😮

Take a look in the dosbox.conf wiki for all the sound stuff it does:

1. Speaker: don't need a card for that.
2. Tandy: interesting early 1980s stuff, very nostalgic if you had a Tandy (or Spectrum 128k), otherwise obscure and probably not needed. If you want it, PCBs available on eBay for home assembly.
3. Disney Sound Source: obscure, old standard. Pretty cool engineering (sounds better than you'd expect given the incredibly primitive design), but not widely supported in games. If you wanted it, an Aztech NXPro card would be easiest. This would also give you OPL3 and SoundBlaster Pro 2 support, but no MPU-401 MIDI or SB16.
4. Sound Blaster: lots of standards. The two to watch are Sound Blaster Pro 2 and Sound Blaster 16. The latter has highest quality output, but more games only support Pro 2. Issue with real hardware: SB16 is not totally SBPro2 compatible, stereo gets mixed up. Also there are huge numbers of SB16 cards, each with own specs and various bugs. Basically you can't get real OPL3 (see below), functional MIDI and no clicks/hisses. Choose any two... there are a number of non-Creative SB16-compatible chipsets, such as the Avance Logic ALS100(+), Crystal CS4232 and C-Media CM-8330, the latter two both offer SBPro2 and SP16 compatibility and good MIDI, but no real OPL3. The ALS100 (non-plus) could theoretically be ideal, with SBPro2, SB16, working MPU-401 MIDI and OPL3. However they are hard to find and usually implemented on very low-end cards with ditto sound quality. Bottom line: one card most definitely does not fit all, unless you sacrifice something.
5. AdLib OPL2/3: the original FM-synthesis. Used for music and effects in the very early 1990s, music only combined with Sound Blaster for digital audio later. OPL2 was mono, OPL3 stereo. All Sound Blaster compatible cards offer some form of AdLib compatibility. Some have an original Yamaha chip or a Yamaha design integrated into a custom chip. Others have a 100% OPL3 clone ("LS-212" etc). These all sound 'good'. Many other clones have their own implementation, with differing results. It's a matter of taste, but ESS' ESFM and most C-Media and OPTi solutions have a fairly good reputation, Creative's CQM and most Crystal solutions are considers so-so, and some are downright awful (Crystal CS4235, Gravis Ultrasound, Ensoniq Soundscape). DOSBox emulates a 'real' OPL3 pretty well, so you probably want one if you play games using it.
6. Gravis Ultrasound: niche sample-based card. Not a lot of support, but sounds better than anything else in most games that use it. Only GUS cards or clones can supply this, and they are expensive.
7. General MIDI: what your Dreamblaster S2 does. A 'real' Roland SC-55 would sound better (as would similar modules from the likes of Yamaha, Korg etc), as would a Roland SCB-55 module, or indeed Serda's Dreamblaster X2. But being realistic your S2 would probably sound about as good as DOSBox, use it and focus on the card.
8. MPU-401 MIDI interface: what you need to run your Dreamblaster. Just the header isn't enough. Creative's SB16 cards *all* have MIDI interface bugs. Most clones have decent MPU-401, but some don't support it at all in hardware (older Aztech and ESS models). Also very old games require 'intelligent mode' which is only offered by a handful of orignal MIDI-only cards (Roland's MPU-401, Musicquest's cards) or recent replicas. You can emulate intelligent mode on >=386 with SoftMPU - which DOSBox does.

So you would need at least five cards to cover everything that DOSBox does in hardware, and that would hardly work (resource conflicts) 😮

Add all of that together and the bottom lines are IMHO:
- what you need depends on what you play.
- assuming you drop obscure Tandy, Covox and GUS, and hardware intelligent mode MPU-401 support, you can manage with two cards, a 'genuine' Creative SB16 and a good SBPro2 clone with bug-free MIDI (Aztech 2316/2320, ESS 1868F, Yamaha YMF71x) with wavetable header. Either can have the OPL3; if your SB16 doesn't have it, go for the Aztech or Yamaha cards as they have real OPL.

I have an AWE32 (real OPL) and a Gravis Ultrasound in my k6 box with a midiman card hooked to my midi modules. ticks all my boxes 😀

One of the modern Yamaha-based SB16 clones. They are engineered to be free of all the weird bugs that affected the various Sound Blasters, and they have true OPL3.

keenmaster486 wrote on 2020-03-10, 17:21:

One of the modern Yamaha-based SB16 clones. They are engineered to be free of all the weird bugs that affected the various Sound Blasters, and they have true OPL3.

That sounds ideal, but I'm not finding any on Google.

Can you link me to some?

Hmm, the only one I can find right now is this one:
http://www.tmeeco.eu/TKAYBSC/

and the project seems to have stalled for the time being. I know there are others out there but I can't find them right now.

My 2 cents:

1) spend some time listening to sound samples on YouTube. Here is the obligatory E1M1 video. Here's another classic video, showing the evolution of sound hardware with Secret of Monkey Island. Here's a video that might make you fall in love with AdLib/FM music. Here's a website that has samples for some less famous cards.

2) Here's a nice article to give you a general understanding of how sound standards evolved in PC games. For instance, if your main interest is mid-90s FPS games like Doom/Duke Nukem 3D, you don't really need to obsess about AdLib and MT-32, because those sound standards became less important after 1993. So you just need a good MIDI device and a SoundBlaster clone with clean output for those games.

3) Use Mobygames database to check sound support for different games. Each game also has a "specs" page where all the sound standards are listed for each and every game.

4) Make a list of games that you really want to play. Literally everyone overestimates this part ("I'm going to play all DOS games from early 80s to late 90s" — no, you most likely won't). Also important is the operating system you're going to use. AWE32/64 really calls for Windows 9x, while GUS is mostly a DOS card. Some options are versatile, though.

5) pick a card that covers all your needs. Worst case scenario, pick two (e.g. AWE32 and GUS or SB16 and MT-32) — it's pretty easy to use two cards in the same system. Three cards in a single system is already challenging, and everything beyond that is a path to pure madness where you start rebuilding your entire computer around your sound hardware.

6) BUY THAT CARD. I mean, get the card you actually want. Try not to fall for compromises, don't get a cheaper card while you're waiting for "a good deal". You'll spend more time/money that way. For example, if you need a SoundBlaster 16 for a Waveblaster card — look specifically for a CT2230 and don't settle for a cheap Vibra.

Just like to add that an"intelligent" mode MPU-401 MIDI interface is only required for some games that were programmed to make use of Roland's MT-32/CM-32L for music playback.
In such a case, either make use of MUNT or use SoftMPU (the latter would be more useful if you actually have an MT-32, CM-32L or compatible module). By 1993, most games switched to General MIDI.

dionb wrote on 2020-03-10, 15:08:

[*]Sound Blaster: lots of standards. The two to watch are Sound Blaster Pro 2 and Sound Blaster 16. The latter has highest quality output, but more games only support Pro 2. Issue with real hardware: SB16 is not totally SBPro2 compatible, stereo gets mixed up. Also there are huge numbers of SB16 cards, each with own specs and various bugs. Basically you can't get real OPL3 (see below), functional MIDI and no clicks/hisses. Choose any two... there are a number of non-Creative SB16-compatible chipsets, such as the Avance Logic ALS100(+), Crystal CS4232 and C-Media CM-8330, the latter two both offer SBPro2 and SP16 compatibility and good MIDI, but no real OPL3. The ALS100 (non-plus) could theoretically be ideal, with SBPro2, SB16, working MPU-401 MIDI and OPL3. However they are hard to find and usually implemented on very low-end cards with ditto sound quality. Bottom line: one card most definitely does not fit all, unless you sacrifice something.

A few corrections, here.
SB Pro and SB16 both support the modes found in the SB 2.0 and earlier. The SB Pro doesn't support programming modes found in the SB16, and the SB16 doesn't support programming modes found in the SB Pro. So, stereo effects and higher quality audio must be implemented specific for those generations of card. There are a few exceptions. For instance, Wolf3d creates quasi stereo effects by panning the mixer left and right. That method works on both the SB Pro and SB16 using the same commands.

Most compatible chips implemented the SB and SB Pro interfaces. Chips lines in this category include much of the Aztech line, Crystal Semiconductor (CS/CX42xx), Opti, Yamaha, ESS, and Analog Devices chips (as much as their ISA cards supported DOS in the first place). Most of these cards (except ESS) support the Windows Sound System standard for 16 bit playback.

As for SB16 compatible chipsets, the only two generally known are the CMI8330 chip from C-Media (sometimes rebranded as a SoundPro) and the Avance Logic line (ALS007, ALS100, ALS100+, etc). These supported the SB16 interface as well as SB Pro modes. Creative baked SB16 compatibility into their later SB Live and Audigy drivers, but compatibility of those is far from perfect. No cards from Crystal Semi supported SB16 in DOS, not even their PCI chips.

gdjacobs wrote on 2020-03-10, 23:23:

A few corrections, here. [...] […]
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dionb wrote on 2020-03-10, 15:08:

[*]Sound Blaster: lots of standards. The two to watch are Sound Blaster Pro 2 and Sound Blaster 16. The latter has highest quality output, but more games only support Pro 2. Issue with real hardware: SB16 is not totally SBPro2 compatible, stereo gets mixed up. Also there are huge numbers of SB16 cards, each with own specs and various bugs. Basically you can't get real OPL3 (see below), functional MIDI and no clicks/hisses. Choose any two... there are a number of non-Creative SB16-compatible chipsets, such as the Avance Logic ALS100(+), Crystal CS4232 and C-Media CM-8330, the latter two both offer SBPro2 and SP16 compatibility and good MIDI, but no real OPL3. The ALS100 (non-plus) could theoretically be ideal, with SBPro2, SB16, working MPU-401 MIDI and OPL3. However they are hard to find and usually implemented on very low-end cards with ditto sound quality. Bottom line: one card most definitely does not fit all, unless you sacrifice something.

A few corrections, here.
[...]

Most compatible chips implemented the SB and SB Pro interfaces. Chips lines in this category include much of the Aztech line, Crystal Semiconductor (CS/CX42xx), Opti, Yamaha, ESS, and Analog Devices chips (as much as their ISA cards supported DOS in the first place). Most of these cards (except ESS) support the Windows Sound System standard for 16 bit playback.

Yep, but DOSBox doesn't AFAIK. That's why I didn't mention it. WSS is very underrated, IMHO sounds as good as SB16 and far more card options to get it.

As for SB16 compatible chipsets, the only two generally known are the CMI8330 chip from C-Media (sometimes rebranded as a SoundPro) and the Avance Logic line (ALS007, ALS100, ALS100+, etc). These supported the SB16 interface as well as SB Pro modes. Creative baked SB16 compatibility into their later SB Live and Audigy drivers, but compatibility of those is far from perfect. No cards from Crystal Semi supported SB16 in DOS, not even their PCI chips.

I was sure I'd seen the CS423x cards in Sound Blaster 16 Clones but now re-reading it I hadn't. I stand corrected, sorry.

The ALS100+ doesn't support high DMA, so a lot of SB16 stuff won't work on that.

dionb wrote on 2020-03-11, 00:00:

The ALS100+ doesn't support high DMA, so a lot of SB16 stuff won't work on that.

Indeed, nobody's found a way for high dma to work on the Avance Logic chips aside from the ALS100 non-plus.

jheronimus wrote on 2020-03-10, 20:46:

6) BUY THAT CARD. I mean, get the card you actually want. Try not to fall for compromises, don't get a cheaper card while you're waiting for "a good deal". You'll spend more time/money that way. For example, if you need a SoundBlaster 16 for a Waveblaster card — look specifically for a CT2230 and don't settle for a cheap Vibra.

Alternatives to the CT2230: CT2290, CT2920 (off the top of my mind..)

gdjacobs wrote on 2020-03-11, 04:08:

dionb wrote on 2020-03-11, 00:00:

The ALS100+ doesn't support high DMA, so a lot of SB16 stuff won't work on that.

Indeed, nobody's found a way for high dma to work on the Avance Logic chips aside from the ALS100 non-plus.

How crippling is that in real life? Do many games actually require a High DMA of 5 or above? IIRC Duke3D's setup required punching in a High DMA of 5+ but you could edit the config file and set that to 3 manually, and it worked.

I believe you can use DMA 3 as a secondary DMA on these cards, so with DMA 1 & 3 you should be able to emulate the SB16 regardless?

appiah4 wrote on 2020-03-11, 07:09:

[...]

How crippling is that in real life? Do many games actually require a High DMA of 5 or above? IIRC Duke3D's setup required punching in a High DMA of 5+ but you could edit the config file and set that to 3 manually, and it worked.

I believe you can use DMA 3 as a secondary DMA on these cards, so with DMA 1 & 3 you should be able to emulate the SB16 regardless?

As I actually have tried to get a system working with 5 sound cards, I can say: it's a pain. You can never assume things will just work. With Duke3D it's documented how to get "high" DMA 3 selected, with others it won't be. Given the low quality of later ALS100+/120 cards it's just another reason to avoid them.