VOGONS


First post, by koitsu

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Hi, first post, and looking at purchasing my first Sound Canvas for use in music creation. Note that I don't do that much gaming these days, so the better gaming compatibility of an SC-55/55mk2 probably isn't as big a deal in my case. (Please correct me if I'm wrong or missed other important details about that.)

The reason I'm considering the SC-D70 over other hardware is because of the optical IO and 48kHz output, which is the rate I work in with my host interface and DAW. From what I can gather, the Sound Canvas VA has an identical feature set to the 8820/D70, but the few demos I've come across comparing specifically the 8820 or D70 to the VA show some surprising differences, for example, electric guitars in a couple of comparisons on youtube. Granted, those comparisons were for game tracks, so I still can't figure out if the VA might have sounded identical if the plugin's configuration had been tweaked in each case.

I'm wondering if anyone can provide input on whether the Sound Canvas VA might be a better choice over the SC-D70 for someone in my position. I realize that getting situated so that I can fully control the D70 in my DAW is probably going to be a huge hassle, too, but if the VA isn't fully there in terms of accuracy, it might be worth the hassle. Would really appreciate any opinions or other recommendations.

Reply 1 of 24, by koitsu

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Found someone with both who provided useful info over on the REAPER forums.
Last post by bennetng in this thread provides a direct comparison between VA and SC-D70.

Unfortunately, it's yet another case of guitar-heavy tracks, but the guitar lead is clearly not the same between the two.
Now to continue the search regarding other instrument types...

Reply 2 of 24, by koitsu

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Kind of absurd for me to be having a conversation with myself like this, but at this point I'm simply documenting some observations for the sake of anyone else who might come along in the future in a similar situation, with similar questions and similar requirements.

Again, this is focused on the music creator who wants to work in a modern (circa 2020) production environment, with current 64-bit host, DAW, current hardware, and all that. The main question is, "SC-D70 or Sound Canvas VA?"

1) If you are working in macOS, with either a real Mac or a hackintosh, easy--go with the VA. Why? Well, unless you virtualize from within macOS, there's simply no official software/driver support in the now 64-bit only world of Catalina. I cannot confirm whether there are ways to get audio through ASIO with the SC-D70, but if you want to do any kind of patch editing or other advanced MIDI manipulation, you'll need a way to send those messages yourself. My primary DAW is REAPER, and while there are definitely ways to easily send commands using reaMIDIcontrol, and even do more advanced things like conceivably building a full control panel in JSFX, this headache is going to be on you. In contrast, SC-VA offers VERY good similarity in sound quality, provides access to all the edit parameters that are available via SC-55/88 generation hardware or GSAE software, and can also overcome its 16-part limitation through the use of multiple instances...

2) ...and it is here that I will touch on possibly the biggest annoyance of Sound Canvas VA but also note a very important distinction between the macOS and Windows versions: the Mac version loads multiple instances much more quickly than the Windows version. Prior to purchasing the VA, I had read in several places that there was an irritatingly long load time, almost certainly due to the software's copyright protection (since the trial/unactivated version loads with very little delay). I discovered that while the delay on my Windows machine (i7-4790k/32GB/SATA SSD) is for real, the same license on my 2012 MBP (i7-3615QM/16GB/SATA RAID-0 SSD) loads almost as quickly as the trial version did. Here are my load times in REAPER, for a simple project containing 1-4 instances of SC-VA and 16 MIDI send tracks per instance of the VA:
-Windows 10, one VA instance: 6-7 seconds
-Windows 10, four VA instances: 32-35 seconds
-macOS, one VA instance: 8-9 seconds
-macOS, four VA instances: 11-12 seconds
Note that the Macbook Pro in this case is down about 20-30% in terms of processing power versus the PC. Note also that on macOS, when you activate SC-VA, a Roland subfolder will be created in your Applications folder, and this contains "Activator.app." I suspect that the way Roland has implemented its copy protection on macOS has resulted in a slightly longer load time per single instance but much better load times in cases where more than one instance is present in a project. Granted, I'm just one user, but what a difference in my case!

3) If you are running Windows 10, it should be possible for you to install the SC-D70's Vista 64-bit drivers and GS Advanced Editor, which can still be obtained from Roland Japan's website. I imagine that Google translate can help if needed there, but feel free to PM me if you need language help; I speak Japanese. (And of course assuming I'm still hanging around here.) As of this post, there seem to be some good resources to check out for more information on this: the channel SpeedyDTM on Youtube and a tutorial by user 真琴♪さん (Makoto♪-san) on Nicovideo that purports to give a walk-through. (Note that I didn't watch it since I didn't really care anymore by the point I found it.) There's also this page (again, in Japanese) that aims to be a resource for modern OS compatibility with older Roland drivers and software.

Basically, try running the installer(s) in compatibility mode for Vista. Even if the install fails, you can still attempt to manually install via the device manager, pointing it to the resources that were extracted by the installer. With Windows 10, you'll likely have to disable driver signature verification. I'm sure this has been discussed in other threads here as well, so search this forum first!

4) Note to Pro Tools users--Roland does not currently provide Sound Canvas VA in a PT-native format, so it's either host or route the VST or AU into your session, or go with the SC-D70 and treat it like a plain old hardware synth, with the aforementioned caveats.

So in summary, if you're on modern Windows and maybe want the charm of working with real hardware or the absolute real deal when it comes to 88 Pro/8820 sounds, the SC-D70 should be a nice interface, as long as you're sure you'll be able to manage now and in the future when it comes to sound editing either via GSAE or whatever other methods you or someone else may create. If you want something highly portable that works flawlessly on both current 64-bit Windows and macOS, does not require physical MIDI routing or an extra USB port--or an extra power brick!--then the VA is outstanding, albeit slightly wonky with a few sounds, like guitar. I've noticed a few other patches have minor EQ differences that are not purely attributable to the higher sample rate of the VST. For example, some orchestral sounds clearly have more recessed mids. For this, there are various comparisons on Youtube, including a VA vs SC-55 comparison done by Woody's Piano Shack and featuring information contributed by the aforementioned SpeedyDTM.

Hope at least some of that will be useful to any future searchers. Okay, I'm going to go back to being a ghost now.

Reply 3 of 24, by psychz

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

for use in music creation. Note that I don't do that much gaming these days, so the better gaming compatibility of an SC-55/55mk2 probably isn't as big a deal in my case.

Interesting to see somebody considering a Sound Canvas for music production in 2020... If not for gaming, why not go for a Sonic Cell, a (god forbid) SD-50 or a cheap Fantom? I got an SC-88 for getting that early 90s sound (32kHz samplerate among other things) but in reality I don't seem to use it all too much for my music - I mostly fire up the Sonic Cell or the Fantom XR for GM/bread and butter sounds... Don't get me wrong, they're nice boxes but not as flexible as the newer workstations. As I understand, Sound Canvas series was always the "budget" one as compared to Roland's workstations.

BTW GSAE is awesome and v4 seems to work fine with recent Windows versions! Used to use the SC-88 with patchlists and handcraft, didn't really search for an editor! Thanks!

Stojke wrote:

Its not like components found in trash after 20 years in rain dont still work flawlessly.

:: chemical reaction :: athens in love || reality is absent || spectrality || meteoron || the lie you believe

Reply 4 of 24, by koitsu

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
psychz wrote on 2020-04-16, 15:33:

Interesting to see somebody considering a Sound Canvas for music production in 2020... If not for gaming, why not go for a Sonic Cell, a (god forbid) SD-50 or a cheap Fantom?

Fair question! I guess it's mainly because I've been bit by the 90s bug and want to make some retro style music in an authentic way. (I say authentic, but since I ended up licensing VA maybe not that authentic...) But sticking to only that plugin is still an exercise in creative restriction, and I really have been enjoying so far. Before looking into the Sound Canvases, I had been trying to recreate some patches as closely as I could in Falcon but was always lacking something, though I admit I'm nowhere near as good as some people with programming Falcon, Omni, etc.

A Fantom would also be a good idea, but in this case I guess I was deliberately going for the less sophisticated sounds... If I'm being honest, I think nostalgia is playing a big part in it. Another bonus is that when the gaming bug hits me next, I'll be ready for that too. 😀

And glad to hear GSAE is working well even on modern Windows!

Reply 5 of 24, by darry

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

I was thinking about an SC-D70 , but a unit imported from Japan would have an integrated 100v PSU , so I would need a step down transformer (mains is 120v where I am), I guess .

The way the english manual is worded makes me believe that the 120v, 230v and 240v models are distinct , so I would imagine the 100v model is distinct as well, as far as its PSU is concerned .

Does anybody know more about this or possibly has modded his unit to run on DC with a power brick ? Anybody with a service manual know what voltage(s) is/are used internally ?

Reply 6 of 24, by koitsu

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

FWIW, I emailed Roland USA with that very question when I was still shopping around. I noticed that the Japanese units name plate specs 100V while the North American units spec 117V. Not sure what exact voltage the European ones spec. My question to Roland USA was, "Can you tell me if the power supplies inside these units [SC-D70 and SD-80] are switching supplies and compatible with North American mains power? I understand that both of these models were also sold in North America, but I am not sure if the North American models featured different part numbers for their internal power supply units." Here is their reply:

Both models list different various cords as accessories.
The parts list also describes the transformers as a SWITCHING REGULATOR.
They should be fine using the power cords for the US.

So they didn't mention the exact part numbers so we could go hunt for data sheets, but they didn't seem concerned either.

Reply 7 of 24, by darry

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Thanks . I am far from an expert on power matters, but I believe even switching PSUs have allowable input voltage ranges . Potentially running one up to 20% above rating frightens me a bit from a safety (fire) perspective .

Reply 8 of 24, by leethobbit

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

First of all... I never expected to find people discussing this topic in April of 2020 but I guess we have a lot in common! I recently dug out the SC-D70 I purchased 4 years ago after binge listening to a bunch of early Falcom music and decided I wanted to try composing again. So I actually went through the process of downloading the drivers, installing the Vista 64 bit ones with compatibility mode, and got everything connected to my Windows 10 PC!

My issue is that I have no idea how to use the thing 🤣. I am using the USB connection and am able to push MIDI data into the D70 and hear it if I connect to the headphone jack on the D70. I can modify the volume and stuff too but it isn't pushing the midi data through the sound generator so I'm hearing the track exactly as I would on PC. Anyone have experience with that? Am I able to push the data over USB and hear/record the tones of the sound generator or do I have to connect to the MIDI inputs for that?

I'm asking because if I can't use the sound generator via a USB cable I'll probably just use the Sound Canvas VA instead since I don't have any way of connecting MIDI cables to my laptop.

Reply 9 of 24, by koitsu

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
leethobbit wrote on 2020-04-17, 16:24:

First of all... I never expected to find people discussing this topic in April of 2020 but I guess we have a lot in common! I recently dug out the SC-D70 I purchased 4 years ago after binge listening to a bunch of early Falcom music and decided I wanted to try composing again. So I actually went through the process of downloading the drivers, installing the Vista 64 bit ones with compatibility mode, and got everything connected to my Windows 10 PC!

Heck yeah! The first thing I started working on with VA was a rearrangement of some music from Ys I, only with some MIDI and some recorded guitar tracks. Considering how chiptunes have been a thing for years now, I think it's perfectly natural for some of us to also want to revisit 90s sound generators.

Since I went the VA route, I probably won't be of much use, but have you tried the procedure for recording that is outlined on p29-30 of the manual?
http://cdn.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/SC-D70_OM.pdf
*Also note the memo at the top of p40 regarding the "thru function."

The D70 is a full-on audio interface, so I'd be surprised if you can pass sounds from the audio inputs over USB but not from the internal sound generator.

Reply 10 of 24, by leethobbit

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
koitsu wrote on 2020-04-17, 18:38:
Heck yeah! The first thing I started working on with VA was a rearrangement of some music from Ys I, only with some MIDI and som […]
Show full quote
leethobbit wrote on 2020-04-17, 16:24:

First of all... I never expected to find people discussing this topic in April of 2020 but I guess we have a lot in common! I recently dug out the SC-D70 I purchased 4 years ago after binge listening to a bunch of early Falcom music and decided I wanted to try composing again. So I actually went through the process of downloading the drivers, installing the Vista 64 bit ones with compatibility mode, and got everything connected to my Windows 10 PC!

Heck yeah! The first thing I started working on with VA was a rearrangement of some music from Ys I, only with some MIDI and some recorded guitar tracks. Considering how chiptunes have been a thing for years now, I think it's perfectly natural for some of us to also want to revisit 90s sound generators.

Since I went the VA route, I probably won't be of much use, but have you tried the procedure for recording that is outlined on p29-30 of the manual?
http://cdn.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/SC-D70_OM.pdf
*Also note the memo at the top of p40 regarding the "thru function."

The D70 is a full-on audio interface, so I'd be surprised if you can pass sounds from the audio inputs over USB but not from the internal sound generator.

I literally jumped out of my chair about 15 minutes ago because I figured it out. I have to be running GSAE in order for the outputs to appear to Windows but I was able to select the SC-D70 and send MIDI data by playing from Winamp as a test 😀

Falcom MIDIs sound sooooo good like this. I am tempted to do some MIDI sequences of Ryo Yonemitsu's arrangements from Ys 3, 4, and the early Legend of Heroes stuff he did.

I can't lug this thing into work so I will probably get set up with Sound Canvas VA, too.

Reply 11 of 24, by darry

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

I bit the bullet and ordered a Roland SC-D70 from Japan . I saw a photo of a power supply for one of them on a certain auction site and it looks like I just need to change the connection to the transformer ti its 120V connection point .

Looking forward to trying it .

EDIT : Wait, that was a Roland D70 PSU . This promises to be interesting .

Reply 12 of 24, by koitsu

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

I think I've seen the listing to which you allude. According to this blog post, the SC-88 Pro PSU appears to have a similar configuration to that D70 supply, so maybe your SC-D70 won't be much different...? Good luck and please post your findings here if you get the chance!

Reply 13 of 24, by darry

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
koitsu wrote on 2020-04-22, 02:56:

I think I've seen the listing to which you allude. According to this blog post, the SC-88 Pro PSU appears to have a similar configuration to that D70 supply, so maybe your SC-D70 won't be much different...? Good luck and please post your findings here if you get the chance!

I actually started a thread specifically for this . See Questions on running/testing a Japanese 100v sound module (Roland SC-D70) on a North American 120V power grid . .

TLDR : Roland Canada confirmed (a bit more emphatically) what Roland US said about it running fine in North America with just the appropriate cord .
It's running fine for me (MIDI and PCM) over USB in Windows 7 and 10 with Vista X64 drivers .

Reply 15 of 24, by OldNice

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Some information for European users (voltage wise):
Roland SC-D70 also works with 240v/50Hz, despite the device being imported from Japan, and displaying 100V/50Hz/60Hz on the bottom as being the input voltage. The power cable is a standard IEC C13 cable.

The Vista 64-bit drivers also works out of the box, when installed via Windows 10 Device Manager. Windows confirms whether you trust drivers from Roland Corporation, but install and work fine upon confirmation.

The SC-D70 works as a midi host via USB (after installing drivers), and has Toslink and coaxial digital outputs, and can be connected to a DAC of choice, for very good (noisiless) audio output. The sound is not subjectively as "authentic" as SC-55/88, but the good definitely outweights the bad, if you only want to listen to midi songs on a modern computer. SC-55/88, only having analog outputs, tend to introduce noise very easily.

Reply 17 of 24, by Pierre32

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

I bought another thing. Very interesting advice on the SC-D70 taking 240v/50hz directly, despite the nameplate saying 100v (and sellers generally saying you need to buy a stepdown). The specs in the manual, and numerous discussions around the internet, seem to back it up. I'll be taking the gamble for the benefit of all when it arrives.

Reply 18 of 24, by OldNice

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
Pierre32 wrote on 2021-08-27, 09:15:

I bought another thing. Very interesting advice on the SC-D70 taking 240v/50hz directly, despite the nameplate saying 100v (and sellers generally saying you need to buy a stepdown). The specs in the manual, and numerous discussions around the internet, seem to back it up. I'll be taking the gamble for the benefit of all when it arrives.

Seems like an almost identical discussion was had here: Questions on running/testing a Japanese 100v sound module (Roland SC-D70) on a North American 120V power grid ., which seems to confirm that Roland devices from the SC-D70 era seem to support voltages around the world.

I've been using the SC-D70 with 230V for a couple of years now. The device does not get any hotter than it should, and has worked fine so far. Your device is most likely going to be the same.

Reply 19 of 24, by Pierre32

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
OldNice wrote on 2021-08-27, 10:37:
Pierre32 wrote on 2021-08-27, 09:15:

I bought another thing. Very interesting advice on the SC-D70 taking 240v/50hz directly, despite the nameplate saying 100v (and sellers generally saying you need to buy a stepdown). The specs in the manual, and numerous discussions around the internet, seem to back it up. I'll be taking the gamble for the benefit of all when it arrives.

Seems like an almost identical discussion was had here: Questions on running/testing a Japanese 100v sound module (Roland SC-D70) on a North American 120V power grid ., which seems to confirm that Roland devices from the SC-D70 era seem to support voltages around the world.

I've been using the SC-D70 with 230V for a couple of years now. The device does not get any hotter than it should, and has worked fine so far. Your device is most likely going to be the same.

Mine should be here in about a week. Stand by for the smoke test 😁