VOGONS


First post, by 386SX

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Hi,
I've found today some ISA sound cards and need some opinion even if I imagine more or less their period usage:

1) Sound Blaster CT4170 Vibra 16XV with no other chips but a Philips TDA1517P

2) (Two) Sound Blaster AWE64 CT4520 with the EMU8011-01 chip and the main CT8920-NBQ chip and a ram module (?) NPN brand and what looks a FPM ram module Siemens 70ns

3) CT2960 Vibra16C with chip CT2505, a clock component, an ST TEA2025B

4) a generic Yamaha YMF719E-S chip based card and two clock componets and a ST TEA2025B and an eeprom ATMEL 747.

That's all. I suppose the AWE64 are the best of all but generally are the others also good cards to use or just equivalent to most others but the ones having the wavetable chip?
Thank

Reply 3 of 10, by cyclone3d

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I would say AWE64 if you are only using it in Windows. Also good for DOS games that directly support the AWE32 / AWE64 cards.

For a more DOS centered machine, I would say the Yamaha card as you get real OPL3 and better DOS support.

You could always use both cards.

Yamaha modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG repository
YMF7x4 Guide
Aopen AW744L II SB-LINK

Reply 4 of 10, by 386SX

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cyclone3d wrote on 2020-06-08, 18:35:

I would say AWE64 if you are only using it in Windows. Also good for DOS games that directly support the AWE32 / AWE64 cards.

For a more DOS centered machine, I would say the Yamaha card as you get real OPL3 and better DOS support.

You could always use both cards.

Interesting I didn't think the Yamaha card was a good one, it looks so "generic". 😀 Can you explain me more about "real OPL3"?

On the board there're two places not populated with written "QS1000" and "ROM 1Mx8" but miss like it supported but not in this model.

The board is like this one but with an oscillator more below.

Re: Adding IDE capability to Yamaha YMF-719

Reply 5 of 10, by kolderman

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386SX wrote on 2020-06-08, 18:40:
Interesting I didn't think the Yamaha card was a good one, it looks so "generic". :) Can you explain me more about "real OPL3"? […]
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cyclone3d wrote on 2020-06-08, 18:35:

I would say AWE64 if you are only using it in Windows. Also good for DOS games that directly support the AWE32 / AWE64 cards.

For a more DOS centered machine, I would say the Yamaha card as you get real OPL3 and better DOS support.

You could always use both cards.

Interesting I didn't think the Yamaha card was a good one, it looks so "generic". 😀 Can you explain me more about "real OPL3"?

On the board there're two places not populated with written "QS1000" and "ROM 1Mx8" but miss like it supported but not in this model.

The board is like this one but with an oscillator more below.

Re: Adding IDE capability to Yamaha YMF-719

Yes they look very ordinary. OPL is the original FM synthesis found on the old Adlib sound card...that's what the Adlib music option means in games. Original means when the card uses chips from Yamaha from OPL, or licensed clones. There are clones that are not licensed and many sound like crap. This Yamaha board also support software MIDI for DOS games in Win98, which is a fairly unique option and sounds pretty good. They also have bug-free midi and clean digital sound, and WSS for 16-bit sound support.

The AWE64 has most of the above except for OPL and WSS, it has CQM instead which sounds pretty ordinary. The AWE64 is much more useful with a ram expander for soundFonts, but those expanders will cost several time the price of a AWE64 Value.

The question of "best DOS soundcard" comes up fairly often, and the answer is often the YMF7XX series.

Reply 6 of 10, by 386SX

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kolderman wrote on 2020-06-08, 19:01:
Yes they look very ordinary. OPL is the original FM synthesis found on the old Adlib sound card...that's what the Adlib music op […]
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386SX wrote on 2020-06-08, 18:40:
Interesting I didn't think the Yamaha card was a good one, it looks so "generic". :) Can you explain me more about "real OPL3"? […]
Show full quote
cyclone3d wrote on 2020-06-08, 18:35:

I would say AWE64 if you are only using it in Windows. Also good for DOS games that directly support the AWE32 / AWE64 cards.

For a more DOS centered machine, I would say the Yamaha card as you get real OPL3 and better DOS support.

You could always use both cards.

Interesting I didn't think the Yamaha card was a good one, it looks so "generic". 😀 Can you explain me more about "real OPL3"?

On the board there're two places not populated with written "QS1000" and "ROM 1Mx8" but miss like it supported but not in this model.

The board is like this one but with an oscillator more below.

Re: Adding IDE capability to Yamaha YMF-719

Yes they look very ordinary. OPL is the original FM synthesis found on the old Adlib sound card...that's what the Adlib music option means in games. Original means when the card uses chips from Yamaha from OPL, or licensed clones. There are clones that are not licensed and many sound like crap. This Yamaha board also support software MIDI for DOS games in Win98, which is a fairly unique option and sounds pretty good. They also have bug-free midi and clean digital sound, and WSS for 16-bit sound support.

The AWE64 has most of the above except for OPL and WSS, it has CQM instead which sounds pretty ordinary. The AWE64 is much more useful with a ram expander for soundFonts, but those expanders will cost several time the price of a AWE64 Value.

The question of "best DOS soundcard" comes up fairly often, and the answer is often the YMF7XX series.

Thanks, I'll try soon this card then. The lack of a wavetable card expansion where is a problem? I've for example some ESS card having that too. Would it be a problem in some games?

Reply 7 of 10, by dionb

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386SX wrote on 2020-06-09, 12:00:

[...]

Thanks, I'll try soon this card then. The lack of a wavetable card expansion where is a problem? I've for example some ESS card having that too. Would it be a problem in some games?

Wavetable header is only needed if you have a wavetable module, which fits onto the header. If you're asking this question you most likely do not have such a module and it doesn't matter for you.

Reply 8 of 10, by 386SX

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dionb wrote on 2020-06-09, 13:17:
386SX wrote on 2020-06-09, 12:00:

[...]

Thanks, I'll try soon this card then. The lack of a wavetable card expansion where is a problem? I've for example some ESS card having that too. Would it be a problem in some games?

Wavetable header is only needed if you have a wavetable module, which fits onto the header. If you're asking this question you most likely do not have such a module and it doesn't matter for you.

I never really was into the sound card passion back in the 90's so I still lack knowledges on these things. But dos game music like for example Doom or Duke3D does use FM or that wavetable expansion to sound as "originally intended" by the developer? I understand it could have been OPL FM, Roland MIDI and / or?

Reply 9 of 10, by Oetker

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It depends on the game how it was intended to sound, some were intended to use FM, others are supposed to use a MIDI device and map MIDI to FM if none is present. A MIDI device can be a sound card's built-in wave table, an addon board, or an external module. Doom and Duke3D are 'intended' to use a Sound Canvas, which can take all three forms. Various MIDI devices/boards/cards might sound good or bad depending on the game. If you want to play around with a wave table module, you could get a DreamBlaster.

Reply 10 of 10, by dionb

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Oetker wrote on 2020-06-09, 13:50:

It depends on the game how it was intended to sound, some were intended to use FM, others are supposed to use a MIDI device and map MIDI to FM if none is present. A MIDI device can be a sound card's built-in wave table, an addon board, or an external module. Doom and Duke3D are 'intended' to use a Sound Canvas, which can take all three forms. Various MIDI devices/boards/cards might sound good or bad depending on the game. If you want to play around with a wave table module, you could get a DreamBlaster.

So what that means is that if your card doesn't have onboard wavetable, and it doesn't have a header, your only option is an external module, connected to the gameport.

Those modules tend to be expensive but of very good quality. Roland MT-32 and SC-55 are the two you will hear about most, because most game music was composed on them or with them in mind.

Your list contains two AWE64 cards. They can play (General) MIDI and are considered pretty average - nowhere near as good as Roland (or Yamaha or Korg) modules or internal wavetable cards, but better than the real low-end stuff. Some games have dedicated AWE support and use additional features of the cards.

To get an idea how it all sounds, just listen to some Youtube videos. Google the name of your favorite DOS game and add "Roland" or "AWE" to it. If the game supports it, somebody has probably made a video of it.

Note that MIDI = music (with very, very few exceptions). For sound effects you'll be using other functionality of your card. That's usually digital audio, which comes in Soundblaster, Soundblaster Pro and Soundblaster 16 flavours, as well as some more proprietary standards (which none of your cards use) and the underrated Windows Sound System standard, which is basically equal to SB16. Some older games use FM-synthesis for effects (and music) too. That's the OPL2/3 discussion. The industry standard for FM was set by the AdLib card, with a Yamaha OPL2 chip. OPL2 is mono, later OPL3 offered similar sound in stereo.

So you have three things:
1) FM synth ('real' OPL2 / 3, exact OPL2/3 clones, or re-implementations of varying quality) Your AWE64 and Vibra cards have Creative's CQM, which is considered average, but not as good as the 'real' thing. The Yamaha card has a real integrated OPL3
2) Digital audio. The Creative cards all do Soundblaster and Soundblaster 16, but not Soundblaster Pro or WSS. Note that they can play SBPro sounds, but stereo will frequently be wrong. The Yamaha card does Soundblaster and Soundblaster Pro, but not Soundblaster 16. It does doe WSS though for 16-bit DOS audio.
3) MIDI. All the cards support MPU-401 (the interface to talk to MIDI devices), but the CT2960 has *bad* bugs in it and all the Creative cards have minor bugs when playing midi and digital audio at the same time. The Yamaha card has bug-free MPU-401. Only the AWE64 cards actually can act as a MIDI playback device.

Basically the AWE64 wins on features, the Yamaha on bug-free fidelity. A solution to get the best of both worlds is to have both installed at the same time. That gives you the real OPL3, SBPro and WSS support of the Yamaha (+bug-free MPU-401 that you're not going to be using without an external module) and the SB16 and AWE (MIDI playback) of the AWE64. Having both means you can avoid the minor bugs in MIDI playback on the AWE by using the Yamaha for digital audio playback when the AWE is doing music. That said, given the questions you are asking, getting those two cards configured properly with non-conflicting resources may be a bit too much of a challenge...