VOGONS


First post, by PC-Engineer

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Hey, i want to convert my S7 to a SS7, based on VIA MVP3 with a K6III with scope late 1999. I plan to use an ISA and a PCI soundcard.

The system is intended to perform late DOS games like Tie-Fighter SVGA, Privateer Darkening, Quake, Tomb Raider, ... and Windows Games until early 2000 with EAX, Wavetable (e.g. Final Fantasy with XG sound) and CD music. So I think I don‘t need authentic FM music, but authentic sound effects and authentic Midi music. For older stuff i have other systems.

At moment I use a Maestro 32/96 with a DB50-XG and a SB Live! but maybe there would be a better combination. All listed cards below I have in stock. The X-fire is from late 2000 and sadly not really time correct.

  • Option 1: Maestro 32/96 + DB50-XG & SB Live!
  • Option 2: Aztech Pro 16 III PnP (2316) + SCB-55 & DMX X-fire 1024 + DB50-XG
  • Option 3: Miro PCM20 + SCB-55 & DMX X-fire 1024 + DB50-XG
  • Option 4: AWE32 CT3990 & DMX X-fire 1024 + DB50-XG

Which option would you chose or are there other reasonable options? Maybe with other, easy obtainable cards.

Thanks in advance!

Epox 7KXA Slot A / Athlon 950MHz / Voodoo 5 5500 / PowerVR / 512 MB / AWE32 / SCSI - Windows 98SE

Reply 1 of 13, by dionb

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Tbh, I wouldn't play Win2k stuff on a K6-3. It runs the OS fine, but it's underpowered for the games. I'd go for at least a P3 Coppermine. But a PCI sound card with EAX won't hurt DOS (hell, you don't even need to initialize it) so it doesn't hurt - by all means do it if you want.

As for DOS. You mention Tie-Fighter and MIDI. That means you'll hit the SB16 MIDI slowdown bug, so you don't want to use the AWE32 to host your DB50-XG. Apart from that you do definitely want 16b sound with those late games.

There's two ways to do that:
1) the commonest, SB16. That means AWE32 in this case.
2) rarer in software, but more common in hardware, WSS. That can be delivered by Maestro, Aztech and PCM20.

So big question: do you have two ISA slots?
If not, I'd say keep the current setup. Maestro 32/96 is excellent for SBPro2 and WSS plus bug-free MIDI. Oh, and the very nice Dream synth.
If you do have two ISA slots, you can have fun - AWE32 plus something with bug-free MIDI (and SBPro2 with correct stereo), which could be any of the other ISA cards. I'd probably choose the Maestro 32/96 because of its Dream wavetable.

And either way, add the PCI card of your choice for Win2k if you really want that.

You can easily have two cards active at once, just set to different resources. Generally it's the older games that prefer default SB settings and read the SET BLASTER variable, so I'd set the SBPro2-compatible card to A220 I5 D1 T4 P330 and the AWE32 to A240 I7 (or 3) D3 (or 0) H5 P300 E620 T6, and (manually) put the SBPro2 settings in the SET BLASTER variable. To choose the card, just enter the relevant settings in your games.

As for other options... if you really want one ISA/DOS card only, the only options with bug-free MIDI and decent SB16 support are Avance Logic ALS100 (non-plus) and C-Media CMI-8330. The ALS100 has the option of real (or more commonly: 100% clone) OPL3 as an advantage, but you correctly say that doesn't matter too much for late games. Bigger problem with both is that they are late, low-end chipsets generally implemented on cheap crap boards. There are some fairly decent ALS100 boards out there, but nothing that comes even close to the level of quality of a Terratec or MIro card, at best equalling Creative. So I'd recommend two ISA cards if at all possible.

Reply 2 of 13, by PC-Engineer

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Many thanks for the good advice. Three answers first.

I don't want to use Windows 2000, but run games from the year 2000 on Windows 98SE
Unfortunately I can only use one ISA slot
I still have a Roland SCB-55 for the WTH

If it weren't for the problem with the slowdowns in Tie-Fighter, the decision would be clear in favor of the AWE (i had to obtain a CT2760/CT3900/CT3980) or a SB16 with WTH and DSP 4.05 (i have in Stock). Otherwise I would also find the Aztech and the PCM20 with the SCB-55 still very charming. The Maestro uses a lot of resources and still needs a reconfiguration of the reverb and chorus parameters. With the PCM20 I would also have the OPL4 wavetable. But with the Maestro in DOS I can use the XG and Roland (Dream) and the Live! in Windows.

The hint with the ALS100 is very good and friendly, but it does not quite fit into my focus.

All in all it condenses on the following questions

  • What incompatibilities await me with the PCM20 that I do not have with the Maestro
  • WSS with the CS4232 in DOS is said to be a bit buggy, it works better with the Opti of the PCM20
  • Which DOS games sound better with the XG or OPL4 than with the Roland
  • Which reverb and chorus values do I have to set in the Maestro for authentic Roland sound
  • Does the DMX X-fire has any serious disadvantage compared to the Live!

Thanks a lot for the help!

Epox 7KXA Slot A / Athlon 950MHz / Voodoo 5 5500 / PowerVR / 512 MB / AWE32 / SCSI - Windows 98SE

Reply 3 of 13, by dionb

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Afraid I can't help with the more specific questions about the cards as both Terratec and Miro have gone well beyond minium implementations with those beasts. In general I find Aztech 3rd gen (the 2316 you have) to be the most trouble-free SBPro2 clone with good WSS and MIDI too. Once you've set resources in its EEPROM it doesn't even need to be initialized, just a SET BLASTER line in Autoexec.bat is enough. No wavetable on the card though.

As for wavetable sounds, that's very subjective. Most game music from that time was composed on a Roland SC-55, so generally that (or your SCB-55, which is basically the same on a Wavetable header) gives you the best reproduction of what the composer had in mind. However the Yamaha DB-50XG is also an excellent synth which sounds noticeably different and sometimes can sound better. As for the OPL4 on the Miro, that totally depends on the ROM. Chances are it's not as good as the DB-50XG. The Dream on the Maestro 32/96 is very highly regarded, but again, doesn't sound like a Roland.
Personally I have an Roland SC55, a Yamaha MU-50 (the external module versions of the exact wavetable cards you have) and generally prefer the SC55 sound in games, but particularly in more classical/jazzy sounding tracks (think Transport Tycoon or Colonization) I like the Yamaha more. I'm afraid I don't have any Crystal/Dream or generic OPL4 wavetable cards - I do have quite a few other ones, but the only one to come close to the Roland and Yamaha is a Trust-branded Korg wavetable daughterboard.

For more discussions about the different wavetable options, this is the definitive thread:
My Wavetable Sample Thread

Reply 4 of 13, by PC-Engineer

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Ok, all seem to be usable configurations. Just try out what works better. Start with the PCM20 and compare with the Maestro combination. Thank you for the advices.

Epox 7KXA Slot A / Athlon 950MHz / Voodoo 5 5500 / PowerVR / 512 MB / AWE32 / SCSI - Windows 98SE

Reply 5 of 13, by dionb

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Want to hear a coincidence? A few minutes after typing my last reply, where I said I don't have a generic OPL4 card, I saw a local ad for a Miro PCM1 Pro, which has basically the same wavetable config as your PCM20. So in a few days I will be able to comment on it 😉

Reply 6 of 13, by PC-Engineer

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But do not be disappointed if the wavetable does not run under DOS. With the PCM1 Pro it only runs under Windows, but then also in the DOS window. 😉

Epox 7KXA Slot A / Athlon 950MHz / Voodoo 5 5500 / PowerVR / 512 MB / AWE32 / SCSI - Windows 98SE

Reply 7 of 13, by dionb

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PC-Engineer wrote on 2020-09-24, 04:21:

But do not be disappointed if the wavetable does not run under DOS. With the PCM1 Pro it only runs under Windows, but then also in the DOS window. 😉

Yep, that's the common limitation of OPL4 (or rather the fact no-one wrote a DOS MPU-401 handler for it). Fortunately I have a nice Win98SE test system it's going into this evening - it arrived an hour ago.

Coincidence gets better: the seller also had a Terratec Maestro 32/96. Unfortunately he wanted 4.5x as much for that, which might be justified (still cheaper than I've seen elsewhere), but more than I was willing to pay.

Reply 8 of 13, by PC-Engineer

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A good buy. The Miro cards are very high quality designed and low noise. I think the OPL4 Wavetable is quite good, better than the SB AWE Wavetable.

The Win9x driver should not be that good. I am curious about your opinion. The PCM12 and PCM20 have MPU support in DOS.

If you found the multiple price of the Maestro reasonable, I don't want to know what the bargain was with the PCM1. 😉

Epox 7KXA Slot A / Athlon 950MHz / Voodoo 5 5500 / PowerVR / 512 MB / AWE32 / SCSI - Windows 98SE

Reply 11 of 13, by foil_fresh

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I'd go with the awe32/xg daughterboard + whatever pci sound card has less performance hit when running direct sound. covers FM, midi, sb16, wss/direct sound and some AWE compatibility for that little bit extra.

IMO... using 3d sound is a waste of resources unless you've got a super fast computer beyond the game's time. Who wants amazing audio and 25fps??? (not me) but if you're into that, cool. personally if i wanted these sound features for those games i'd be looking at a pc around 1-1.5ghz to take advantage of a nice resolution and also not getting any dips with audio processing. i'm sure you'd rather be playing these win games at 1024x768 and above? slot 1 and a fast p3 would be my pick... but if you are definitely set on SS7 with period correct parts then yeah I understand.

curious about the terratec card. as a kid in aus i literally never ever heard of them, only the last few years did i find out that they're amazing (usually). this one has nice specs, can handle a3d2.0 and eax2.0 so yeah i'd definitely be testing this one first out of curiosity.

Reply 13 of 13, by PC-Engineer

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dionb has recognized the problem correctly. I deliberately did not mention the AWE with a wavetable about the WTH in the proposals. On the one hand my AWE version (CT3990) has the really annoying HNB and on the other hand the jerkers in Tie-Fighter are really shitty. I had a SB16 + SCB55 in my Socket 3 PC until I played Tie-Fighter (one of my favorite games). Now there is a Tropez Plus instead of the SB16 in it. The SCB-55 is applied on a Midi card from keropi and has replaced the 3Com Ethernet card.

Sadly, the Creative cards all disqualify themselves. And I was a fan of Creative for a long time.

Will go with the PCM20+SCB55 (via WTH) and the DMX+DB50XG (via WTH)

Epox 7KXA Slot A / Athlon 950MHz / Voodoo 5 5500 / PowerVR / 512 MB / AWE32 / SCSI - Windows 98SE