VOGONS


First post, by Pierre32

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This statement from the Voyetra Sequencer Plus Gold manual is in the last paragraph here:

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They highlight this as an issue for uploading sound banks, but it has another consequence: If I'm inputting notes with a MIDI keyboard, and using an offboard MIDI device like a Sound Canvas for playback, I can't hear the notes as I'm inputting them. I have to record in silence then play it back to hear it. Which is not a very good workflow!

Does anyone know if this is an inherent limitation of the Sound Blaster / compatible MPU-401 interface? I've been googling but can't find it explicitly spelled out anywhere else. Simultaneous MIDI IN/OUT is a pretty essential function for music creation, and seeing as Creative sold MIDI breakout kits for this purpose, it seems odd that you can't do it.

Has anyone been down this road with Voyetra? Are my only alternatives a Voyetra, Music Quest or Roland interface? Does the Gravis Ultrasound have this limitation too?

For the record my card is an Addonics SB Pro compatible based on a YMF-701S.

Reply 1 of 15, by SuperDeadite

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That's why you use MIDI THRU to send your keyboard to both the sequencer and the module at the same time.

Modules: CM-64, CM-500, SC-55MkII, SC-88 Pro, SY22, TG100, MU2000EX, PLG100-SG, PLG150-DR, PLG150-AN, SG01k, NS5R, GZ-50M, SN-U110-07, SN-U110-10, Pocket Studio 5, DreamBlaster S2, X2, McFly, E-Wave, QWave, CrystalBlaster C2, Yucatan FX, BeepBlaster

Reply 2 of 15, by Tiido

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SBs use software based UART, which is source of all its limitations and bugs. Everyone else has a proper hardware UART without any such problems.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
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Reply 3 of 15, by Pierre32

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SuperDeadite wrote on 2020-12-01, 09:58:

That's why you use MIDI THRU to send your keyboard to both the sequencer and the module at the same time.

Unfortunately I'm limited by my input devices - an entry level Behringer keyboard and a Rock Band guitar, both with MIDI out ports only.

Tiido wrote on 2020-12-01, 10:39:

SBs use software based UART, which is source of all its limitations and bugs. Everyone else has a proper hardware UART without any such problems.

So this is just how it is with SBs. Good to know, cheers.

Reply 4 of 15, by Tree Wyrm

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You may need MIDI splitter/multiplier that takes one MIDI input and duplicates it to multiple outputs. A step above there are also MIDI routers that provide control over what goes where, but they also tend to be more expensive.

Reply 5 of 15, by root42

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Pierre32 wrote on 2020-12-01, 10:50:
SuperDeadite wrote on 2020-12-01, 09:58:

That's why you use MIDI THRU to send your keyboard to both the sequencer and the module at the same time.

Unfortunately I'm limited by my input devices - an entry level Behringer keyboard and a Rock Band guitar, both with MIDI out ports only.

Wouldn't the wiring be:

MIDI Keyboard [MIDI Out] -> [MIDI In] Roland SC55 [MIDI Thru] -> [MIDI In] SoundBlaster

That should be possible with your devices so that you can hear what you are playing. You will have to rewire for playback from the PC, yes. But that's then a limitation of your setup, as you said. Otherwise get Keropi's PC MIDI Card clone! 😀

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Reply 7 of 15, by root42

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Orpheus is an equally valid choice, of course!

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Reply 8 of 15, by Pierre32

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I may have another option to try while I procrastinate on a PC MIDI card. It turns out Voyetra released an expanded driver pack, and among those drivers is vapiTG.com, a serial MIDI driver for the Yamaha TG100. I happen to have one of these in the stack, but the driver will likely also work with Korg or Roland modules that have a serial option.

This effectivley turns the TG100 into a MIDI interface giving me access to IN, OUT and THRU ports - and hopefully gives me the simultaneous MIDI transmission I'm after. Just need to grab a serial-miniDIN cable and try it out.

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A proper MIDI card would still give me the most convenient setup, ie. not having to rewire things for different activities.

Reply 9 of 15, by yawetaG

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root42 wrote on 2020-12-01, 12:26:
Wouldn't the wiring be: […]
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Pierre32 wrote on 2020-12-01, 10:50:
SuperDeadite wrote on 2020-12-01, 09:58:

That's why you use MIDI THRU to send your keyboard to both the sequencer and the module at the same time.

Unfortunately I'm limited by my input devices - an entry level Behringer keyboard and a Rock Band guitar, both with MIDI out ports only.

Wouldn't the wiring be:

MIDI Keyboard [MIDI Out] -> [MIDI In] Roland SC55 [MIDI Thru] -> [MIDI In] SoundBlaster

That should be possible with your devices so that you can hear what you are playing. You will have to rewire for playback from the PC, yes. But that's then a limitation of your setup, as you said. Otherwise get Keropi's PC MIDI Card clone! 😀

Just use the second MIDI In port on the SC55 to connect the MIDI Out on the Sound Blaster. Since the SB can't receive and send at once it should not be a problem (i.e. no MIDI loop).

Reply 10 of 15, by Pierre32

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I've actually had the SC-55 in the chain, purely as a monitor for MIDI input. But that's not the output device I want to drive - I want to use the FB-01, internal OPL3 and maybe some TG100. So I'm recording with different sounds than I intend to capture, which is a little janky.

Reply 11 of 15, by randomtestsubject

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Pierre32 wrote on 2020-12-01, 09:39:
This statement from the Voyetra Sequencer Plus Gold manual is in the last paragraph here: […]
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This statement from the Voyetra Sequencer Plus Gold manual is in the last paragraph here:

Voyetra-SB.jpg

They highlight this as an issue for uploading sound banks, but it has another consequence: If I'm inputting notes with a MIDI keyboard, and using an offboard MIDI device like a Sound Canvas for playback, I can't hear the notes as I'm inputting them. I have to record in silence then play it back to hear it. Which is not a very good workflow!

Does anyone know if this is an inherent limitation of the Sound Blaster / compatible MPU-401 interface? I've been googling but can't find it explicitly spelled out anywhere else. Simultaneous MIDI IN/OUT is a pretty essential function for music creation, and seeing as Creative sold MIDI breakout kits for this purpose, it seems odd that you can't do it.

Has anyone been down this road with Voyetra? Are my only alternatives a Voyetra, Music Quest or Roland interface? Does the Gravis Ultrasound have this limitation too?

For the record my card is an Addonics SB Pro compatible based on a YMF-701S.

First post and longtime SPG user here - joined so I could reply to this. You can absolutely do what you are trying to do with almost any Sound Blaster - only the *very* early Sound Blasters (1.0, 1.5) were unable to do full duplex MIDI, and they used a primitive breakout box instead of the standardized MIDI breakout cable used on almost all gameports thereafter. SB Pros should not suffer from this limitation, but I don't believe they have full MPU compatibility so you'll want to make sure you're using the proper VAPISB driver. Provided you can load SPG with this driver, record notes from a MIDI keyboard, and hear those notes played back on your external MIDI device, hearing as you record is simply a matter of activating MIDI Thru in SPG, which you can do by pressing Shift+F9, setting MODE to "Current" and RECHANNELIZE to "On"

For extra fun you can load an additional driver that lets you play the FM sounds on the sound card as well, should you have any interest in that.

Reply 12 of 15, by Pierre32

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randomtestsubject wrote on 2021-01-23, 04:08:

First post and longtime SPG user here - joined so I could reply to this. You can absolutely do what you are trying to do with almost any Sound Blaster - only the *very* early Sound Blasters (1.0, 1.5) were unable to do full duplex MIDI, and they used a primitive breakout box instead of the standardized MIDI breakout cable used on almost all gameports thereafter. SB Pros should not suffer from this limitation, but I don't believe they have full MPU compatibility so you'll want to make sure you're using the proper VAPISB driver. Provided you can load SPG with this driver, record notes from a MIDI keyboard, and hear those notes played back on your external MIDI device, hearing as you record is simply a matter of activating MIDI Thru in SPG, which you can do by pressing Shift+F9, setting MODE to "Current" and RECHANNELIZE to "On"

For extra fun you can load an additional driver that lets you play the FM sounds on the sound card as well, should you have any interest in that.

Sir, that was quite an entrance. Enabling MIDI Thru in SPG did the trick. Thank you!

Very useful info on the progression of SB MIDI too. Reading through the history again now, it's all there from the early primitive implementation, to the eventual MPU compatibility in the Pro line. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Blaster

Reply 13 of 15, by randomtestsubject

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Pierre32 wrote on 2021-01-23, 05:18:

Sir, that was quite an entrance. Enabling MIDI Thru in SPG did the trick. Thank you!

Very useful info on the progression of SB MIDI too. Reading through the history again now, it's all there from the early primitive implementation, to the eventual MPU compatibility in the Pro line. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Blaster

Thank you, glad to be of help!

I noticed after I posted where you mentioned how you'd ideally like to use your setup with the FB01, TG100, and OPL3 - for the OPL3 you'll want to make sure you load an additional SAPI driver when you launch SPG, that should give you access to 128 FM sounds in GM format, typically assigned to MIDI port 2. The FB01 and TG100 would have to share the 16 MIDI channels on port 1 in SPG, but you can chain them easily enough since they each have MIDI Thru ports. It'd be pretty easy to have this setup firing on all cylinders in SPG. (Especially since SPG can act as a patch manager for the FB01 as well.)

Coming back to the MIDI Thru in SPG though, this will revert back to off when restarting the program, so I'd recommend changing the setting (and whatever other settings you want to be persistent) and save a .SNG file, calling it "default.sng" or something similar - SPG allows you to invoke a song file when loading from the command line, and by adding a .SNG with your preferred settings to the default "SEQ.BAT" launcher, you can avoid having to change these settings every time.

If you need any help getting the SAPI driver going, or just have any other questions in general about the program I'll be happy to help. I'm looking at getting a very similar setup myself at the moment, basically an FM tone generator and a GM module to use with SPG.

Reply 14 of 15, by Pierre32

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SAPI driver up and running no worries. The OPL3 provides a lot of fun and variety out of the box comapred to the FB01.

MIDI runs to my external modules via a MIDI Solutions Quadra Thru, and audio runs back through a switchbox to my tiny mixer. So while the MIDI goes out to everything, I can currently only hear one device at a time (plus the OPL3 of course). That's all I need for gaming, and is even fine for this tinkering for now. Great tip on adding a default SNG file to SEQ.BAT.

Reply 15 of 15, by Pierre32

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By the way, if anyone is interested in seeing Voyetra Sequencer in action, this guy's "speed programming" videos are fantastic. It's a completely modern studio environment, but he still sequences in DOS because the workflow is so good. Speed indeed.

MIDI Madness (Shahe Sinanoglu) - HANG DRUMS Speed Programming