VOGONS


Reply 20 of 34, by mattw

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mattw wrote on 2021-02-10, 14:18:

... I am working on it, but I still cannot figure out the Soundbank encryption algorithm for S-YXG2600 - it's very close to the algorithm used by Yamaha S-YXG50 VST, but yet I am still failing to properly decrypt the S-YXG2600 Soundbank...

I've just succeeded in decrypting the S-YXG2600 Soundbank. It's 2-layers encrypted, 1st layer is almost the same algorithm as S-YXG50, but 2nd layer is new (not used in S-YXG50).

Reply 21 of 34, by yawetaG

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mattw wrote on 2021-02-10, 14:18:
yawetaG wrote on 2021-02-10, 07:25:

but I'm not sure whether it will really work with other AWM2 synths, because those do not use XG (except for their GM bank maybe) and have many more* parameters available than in XG.

you're very knowledgeable about those matters and I agree, even my lack of knowledge makes my point of view totally different.

Nah, I just wanted to have a XG module that had full edit and did the research to find those.
A very useful page for finding out which General MIDI modules had more advanced features was Sealed's Deep Synthesis Page. Mr. Sealed had a nice collection of synths including many GM modules, dove deep into what each module could do, and then put up a short set of pages describing the special features. Internet Archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20101008032727/ht … ynth_seal/html/. The site has some minor errors, but is generally very good. My list of "interesting synths" basically got started there.
It might also be useful to search for the old Yamaha UK XG site on the Internet Archive. That was a very strange website for an official manufacturer's website, with many links to XG users' websites...it's how I managed to track down most 3rd party XG editors.

So, I agree with you, because there are let's call it "old" AWM2 engine and "new" AWM2 engine with Yamaha VST-es as well. So, Yamaha S-YXG50 VST covers the "old" AWM2 engine (I don't know in terms of hardware devices which is the last device with that engine).

I think that might be TG300/TG500/CS6/S30/S80 for the "old AWM2", and Motif (and S90) for the "new AWM2". For MU modules that then probably is everything up to MU100 = "old AWM2", and MU128/1000/2000 for "new AWM2", but I'm not sure...

Reply 22 of 34, by darry

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mattw wrote on 2021-02-10, 17:35:
mattw wrote on 2021-02-10, 14:18:

... I am working on it, but I still cannot figure out the Soundbank encryption algorithm for S-YXG2600 - it's very close to the algorithm used by Yamaha S-YXG50 VST, but yet I am still failing to properly decrypt the S-YXG2600 Soundbank...

I've just succeeded in decrypting the S-YXG2600 Soundbank. It's 2-layers encrypted, 1st layer is almost the same algorithm as S-YXG50, but 2nd layer is new (not used in S-YXG50).

Are you referring to the S-YXG2006LE version ( bundled with Yamaha MidRadio 7) with support only for XGLite or is there actually an S-YXG2600 ?
See https://veg.by/en/blog/2016/04/25/yamaha-midi-synth-history/

Reply 23 of 34, by mattw

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darry wrote on 2021-02-10, 18:40:

Are you referring to the S-YXG2006LE version ( bundled with Yamaha MidRadio 7) with support only for XGLite or is there actually an S-YXG2600 ?
See https://veg.by/en/blog/2016/04/25/yamaha-midi-synth-history/

Yes, I am referring to the same S-YXG2006LE - technically that is "SGP2.DLL" from MidRadio 7.x, it's GM and XGLite only, but probably it can be patched to support Full XG because previous "SGP.DLL" from Yamaha MidRadio 6.x is also XGLite only, but there are existing patches to enable Full XG. Also, that History is not entirely correct as I mentioned here:

Re: Yamaha Sequence Object Linking (SOL) 2

and more specifically here:

https://og.kervella.org/y/readme.html

because it states there is no Retail S-YXG50 (i.e. that it was discontinued before Release and only Trial exists), but all this thread is about the Retail S-YXG50 included with the Retail release of Yamaha SOL2, i.e. Retail version does exist.

yawetaG wrote on 2021-02-10, 18:12:

I think that might be TG300/TG500/CS6/S30/S80 for the "old AWM2", and Motif (and S90) for the "new AWM2". For MU modules that then probably is everything up to MU100 = "old AWM2", and MU128/1000/2000 for "new AWM2", but I'm not sure...

I believe SW1000XG is using the "new AWM2" both for GM and XG.

Reply 24 of 34, by darry

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mattw wrote on 2021-02-10, 19:00:
Yes, I am referring to the same S-YXG2006LE - technically that is "SGP2.DLL" from MidRadio 7.x, it's GM and XGLite only, but pro […]
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darry wrote on 2021-02-10, 18:40:

Are you referring to the S-YXG2006LE version ( bundled with Yamaha MidRadio 7) with support only for XGLite or is there actually an S-YXG2600 ?
See https://veg.by/en/blog/2016/04/25/yamaha-midi-synth-history/

Yes, I am referring to the same S-YXG2006LE - technically that is "SGP2.DLL" from MidRadio 7.x, it's GM and XGLite only, but probably it can be patched to support Full XG because previous "SGP.DLL" from Yamaha MidRadio 6.x is also XGLite only, but there are existing patches to enable Full XG. Also, that History is not entirely correct as I mentioned here:

Re: Yamaha Sequence Object Linking (SOL) 2

and more specifically here:

https://og.kervella.org/y/readme.html

because it states there is no Retail S-YXG50 (i.e. that it was discontinued before Release and only Trial exists), but all this thread is about the Retail S-YXG50 included with the Retail release of Yamaha SOL2, i.e. Retail version does exist.

yawetaG wrote on 2021-02-10, 18:12:

I think that might be TG300/TG500/CS6/S30/S80 for the "old AWM2", and Motif (and S90) for the "new AWM2". For MU modules that then probably is everything up to MU100 = "old AWM2", and MU128/1000/2000 for "new AWM2", but I'm not sure...

I believe SW1000XG is using the "new AWM2" both for GM and XG.

Ack, TY . I somehow missed that link .
Good luck in your exploratory endeavors .

Reply 25 of 34, by mattw

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darry wrote on 2021-02-10, 19:22:

Good luck in your exploratory endeavors .

Actually, they are about to end, as soon as I release all I current have, which in very short is C source code that can decrypt Sound bank of both S-YGX50 and S-YGX2600 and patches that enable the VST DLLs of those 2 SoftSynths to use such decrypted Soundbank - from there on, it's up to the community (if such even exists) to create custom banks... I am no musician and so creating sound banks is beyond my abilities. Also, when you have decrypted Sound bank you need to do experiments and figure out each byte (with changing it and listen to the change) in the Instrument definition what it does, e.g. things like Coarse Pitch, LFO settings, etc. In short what @kitrinx did for Roland SC:

Re: About Roland Virtual Sound Canvas 3

it's very time consuming plus you really need to be a musician (and by that I mean to be able to play some instrument even as amateur and hobby) in order to be able to tell what particular byte controls.

Reply 27 of 34, by Stiletto

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mattw wrote on 2021-02-06, 08:38:
BTW, I want to make a note that the information here: https://og.kervella.org/y/readme.html ... is not correct […]
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BTW, I want to make a note that the information here:
https://og.kervella.org/y/readme.html
...
is not correct

I actually know the admin of og.kervella.org very well, in case we could correct the page, but he isn't VEG.

Actually this readme.html page just seems to be an extract of the README that comes with VEG's plugin.
Download: https://veg.by/en/projects/syxg50/

So, feel free to send a correction to VEG via comment on that blog page or via email. 😉

[EDIT] Or via VOGONS! VEG

"I see a little silhouette-o of a man, Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you
do the Fandango!" - Queen

Stiletto

Reply 28 of 34, by mattw

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Stiletto wrote on 2021-02-11, 06:00:

I actually know the admin of og.kervella.org very well, in case we could correct the page...

Actually, it seems it's known for at least over a decade, there is Retail version, because I found this site in Japanese:

https://www.sodan.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~teru/tools/lmr.html

that is around since at least 2007 - you can check it out in archive.org, it's no longer active, it's current copy (mirror) is here:

http://freeverb3vst.osdn.jp/sodan/tools/lmr.html

and it shows Screenshot that is not the Trial. However, I am mentioning the side for another, more important, reason too - it contains the source code of LMR, which is LinuxMidRadio (named upon Yamaha MidRadio) or Wrapper for Linux that Japanese developed for S-YXG50 and S-YXG2600, that source code contains useful information for developers of things like "Bass VSTi" (or application that use it like Falcosoft Midi Player), because it shows how to load those Yamaha VST-es without patching them, i.e. how to make like native-environment for them, including control the polyphony:

  // S-YG20.DLL
// 00 6b 74 65 72 6d 00 4a 4c 45 53 53 43 48 41 52
// 53 45 54 3d 65 75 63 2d 6a 70 00 57 40 01 01 01
// 65
// S-YXG50.DLL
// 44_65_66_61_75_6c_74_20_53_65_74_75_70_00_41 52
// 53 45 54 3d 65 75 63 2d 6a 70 00 57 20_01 01 01
// 65
unsigned char syxgChunkHeadPoly[] =
{0x44,0x65,0x66,0x61,0x75,0x6c,0x74,0x20,
0x53,0x65,0x74,0x75,0x70,0x00,0x41,0x52,
0x53,0x45,0x54,0x3d,0x65,0x75,0x63,0x2d,
0x6a,0x70,0x00,0x57,0x40,0x01,0x01,0x01,
0x65,};

Another useful Japanese site is:

https://sites.google.com/site/gochaism/tools

So, just to mention those here for completeness...BTW, Yamaha MidPlayer is free application and almost all version 4.5, 5.6, 6.0, 7.2 are still up, but all links to 7.0 are dead:

http://download.music-eclub.com/mrplayer/win/mr4541E.exe

http://download.music-eclub.com/mrplayer/win/mr5621.exe

http://download.music-eclub.com/mrplayer/win/mr6001.exe

http://download.music-eclub.com/mrplayer/win/mr7211.exe

That's why I asked above if someone keeps copy of version 7.0.0.1

Reply 29 of 34, by darry

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Stiletto wrote on 2021-02-11, 06:00:
I actually know the admin of og.kervella.org very well, in case we could correct the page, but he isn't VEG. […]
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mattw wrote on 2021-02-06, 08:38:
BTW, I want to make a note that the information here: https://og.kervella.org/y/readme.html ... is not correct […]
Show full quote

BTW, I want to make a note that the information here:
https://og.kervella.org/y/readme.html
...
is not correct

I actually know the admin of og.kervella.org very well, in case we could correct the page, but he isn't VEG.

Actually this readme.html page just seems to be an extract of the README that comes with VEG's plugin.
Download: https://veg.by/en/projects/syxg50/

So, feel free to send a correction to VEG via comment on that blog page or via email. 😉

[EDIT] Or via VOGONS! VEG

Totally off topic, but I must ask if veg (a.k.a Evgeny) is actually the Evgeny Bogdanov who wrote this http://ixbtlabs.com/articles/livetolive51/index.html ?

Reply 30 of 34, by mattw

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darry wrote on 2021-02-11, 06:37:

Totally off topic, but I must ask if veg (a.k.a Evgeny) is actually the Evgeny Bogdanov who wrote this http://ixbtlabs.com/articles/livetolive51/index.html ?

nope, Veg last name is different, I am not into doxing people, but I will say to you that Veg last name doesn't even start with the letter "B". I spoke before with Veg to ask him, if he is interested to help me with VSC reverse-engineering, i.e. finding the encryption algorithm :

Re: About Roland Virtual Sound Canvas 3

but he wasn't interested in it. I am glad though, other people did help with both VSC and SC and they did help a lot:

Re: About Roland Virtual Sound Canvas 3

doing really tremendous work surpassing what I did by far.

Reply 31 of 34, by mattw

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OK, I am going to skip for the time being writing what I said would be Guide 1:

Re: Yamaha Sequence Object Linking (SOL) 2

and do Guide 2 instead, because it's very short and fast to write:

Guide 2 : Decrypt Yamaha S-YXG50 and S-YGX2600LE Soundbanks

source code in C doing what the guide title says is attached. respectively, "y50decv1.c" is for S-YXG50 Soundbank and "y26decv1.c" for S-YGX2600LE

[EDIT] there is no need of "Guide0"for S-YGX2600LE (i.e. how to install it as standalone VST), because you can download Yamaha MidRadio 7.2 as mentioned at the end of the post here:

Re: Yamaha Sequence Object Linking (SOL) 2

and then use "SGP2VSTi-1.0.2.22.zip" from here:

https://sites.google.com/site/gochaism/tools

Attachments

  • Filename
    y50decv1.c
    File size
    1 KiB
    Downloads
    7 downloads
    File comment
    Decrypts S-YXG50 Soundbank
    File license
    GPL-2.0-or-later
  • Filename
    y26decv1.c
    File size
    1.84 KiB
    Downloads
    7 downloads
    File comment
    Decrypts S-YXG2600LE Soundbank
    File license
    GPL-2.0-or-later

Reply 32 of 34, by yawetaG

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mattw wrote on 2021-02-10, 19:00:

because it states there is no Retail S-YXG50 (i.e. that it was discontinued before Release and only Trial exists), but all this thread is about the Retail S-YXG50 included with the Retail release of Yamaha SOL2, i.e. Retail version does exist.

Yesterday I found this old thread (you might have seen it already) and then dug around a little more, and it seems that the CD-ROMs with XGWorks/SQLite/SOL that were included with Yamaha's synthesizers for free usually only included trial or limited versions of the softsynths, while the full retail versions have the unlimited software. There also are a few promotional CD-ROMs that sold for 20 dollars or so that only have the trial versions.

I suspect that the S-YGX soft synths weren't actually discontinued, but that the technology was transferred to a company that Yamaha bought back in 2005: Steinberg. All of Yamaha's VSTs that aren't Vocaloid are sold through that company from about 2007 onwards. The timing would match with the apparent discontinuation of Yamaha's soft synthesizers. Steinberg's HALion product's library is partially based on the Motif (so AWM2).
Although if this is to be believed it sounds worse than the actual hardware: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-mu … lion-sonic.html

Reply 33 of 34, by mattw

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yawetaG wrote on 2021-02-11, 08:59:
Yesterday I found this old thread (you might have seen it already) .... I suspect that the S-YGX soft synths weren't actually d […]
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Yesterday I found this old thread (you might have seen it already)
....
I suspect that the S-YGX soft synths weren't actually discontinued, but that the technology was transferred to a company that Yamaha bought back in 2005: Steinberg.
....

in any way, there are no S-YGX synths made after S-YGX50 and S-YGX2600 VST. also, the VST versions of S-YGX synths are all low-latency contrary to all previous versions. IMHO, Yamaha want to sell their keyboards that's why they discontinued not only their software products, but all computer hardware devices like SW1000XG and DS2416 cards, etc.

Reply 34 of 34, by yawetaG

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mattw wrote on 2021-02-11, 11:47:
yawetaG wrote on 2021-02-11, 08:59:
Yesterday I found this old thread (you might have seen it already) .... I suspect that the S-YGX soft synths weren't actually d […]
Show full quote

Yesterday I found this old thread (you might have seen it already)
....
I suspect that the S-YGX soft synths weren't actually discontinued, but that the technology was transferred to a company that Yamaha bought back in 2005: Steinberg.
....

in any way, there are no S-YGX synths made after S-YGX50 and S-YGX2600 VST. also, the VST versions of S-YGX synths are all low-latency contrary to all previous versions. IMHO, Yamaha want to sell their keyboards that's why they discontinued not only their software products, but all computer hardware devices like SW1000XG and DS2416 cards, etc.

You might want to actually research their current products before making that kind of claim. They still sell audio interfaces, through their subsidiary Steinberg.