VOGONS


First post, by iVirtualZero

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My Awe64 failed on my yet again. And the Aweflsh does not work like it did before. So i’m left without a working soundcard. Unless there is a way to fix it. I’m not an expert on soundcards, a bit of a soundcard noob. But all i want is an equivalent replacement that is more reliable. Is the Awe64 the best ISA soundcard? And how does it compare to others like the new Orpheus Dreamblaster x2 or the ESS AudioDrive ES1868F?

Update:
My build is a Pentium 3 Tualatin with an Audigy 2 PCI, 1gb ram, Geforce 4 TI4600. OS is 98SE and XP SP2 32bit. I want an ISA card to play many of the DOS games like Duke Nukem, Doom, Need For Speed 3, Screamer, Tomb Raider, Age of Empires, DaggerFall. Which ever DOS game my build can support.

Last edited by iVirtualZero on 2021-02-12, 13:53. Edited 4 times in total.

Reply 1 of 20, by megatron-uk

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It's subjective, but I don't think there is a best.

An AWE32 or AWE64 won't replicate a Covox or a Roland MT-32. An Ultrasound won't replace a proper OPL2/3. The Dreamblaster is only General MIDI, not FM or digital Soundblaster effects.

It all depends on what era of games you play the most and what compromises you are willing to accept.

In my later 486 I have an Ultrasound, AWE32 + XR385/DB50XG. In my older 286 I have an SB16 and MPU401 to run a real MT-32. In a 386 I'm working on putting together I'll probably use SB16 + GM module and MPU401.

Unfortunately there isn't one card that does it all.

My collection database and technical wiki:
https://www.target-earth.net

Reply 3 of 20, by iVirtualZero

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megatron-uk wrote on 2021-02-12, 13:42:
It's subjective, but I don't think there is a best. […]
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It's subjective, but I don't think there is a best.

An AWE32 or AWE64 won't replicate a Covox or a Roland MT-32. An Ultrasound won't replace a proper OPL2/3. The Dreamblaster is only General MIDI, not FM or digital Soundblaster effects.

It all depends on what era of games you play the most and what compromises you are willing to accept.

In my later 486 I have an Ultrasound, AWE32 + XR385/DB50XG. In my older 286 I have an SB16 and MPU401 to run a real MT-32. In a 386 I'm working on putting together I'll probably use SB16 + GM module and MPU401.

Unfortunately there isn't one card that does it all.

My build is a Pentium 3 Tualatin with an Audigy 2 PCI, 1gb ram, Geforce 4 TI4600. OS is 98SE and XP SP2 32bit. I want an ISA card to play many of the DOS games like Duke Nukem, Doom, Need For Speed 3, Screamer, Tomb Raider, Age of Empires, DaggerFall. Which ever DOS game my build can support.

Last edited by iVirtualZero on 2021-02-12, 13:59. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 4 of 20, by megatron-uk

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If it's just later games like you list, then probably a single card solution like the new Orpheus and a Dreamblaster (or any other GM compatible module attached to the waveblaster header), or another Awe32 or Awe64 . Most of those games are going to be Soundblaster + General MIDI, I'd expect.

My collection database and technical wiki:
https://www.target-earth.net

Reply 5 of 20, by megatron-uk

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386SX wrote on 2021-02-12, 13:49:

In terms of analog audio quality compared to their line-out power which were the best for ISA cards?

Me, or in general?

Out of the above, I'd say my Ultrasound Max was probably the cleanest in terms of audio quality. Pretty much every Soundblaster I've owned has been noisy... but you put up with it because 'Soundblaster', right? And they mostly 'just work' and don't need drivers.

My collection database and technical wiki:
https://www.target-earth.net

Reply 7 of 20, by imi

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I've been listening to a multitude of soundcards both through my speaker setup and headphones, and while yes, some of them have perceivable noise I was always able to set the gain so it was barely noticable while silent, and during playback the low fidelity of that era of audio makes the noise pretty much irrelevant for me.

Reply 8 of 20, by Joseph_Joestar

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If low self-noise is what you're primarily interested in, the ESS AudioDrive 1868F cards are great in that aspect. Be advised that this may vary between different manufacturers.

In so far, I can only speak for my 1868F which is practically noise-free when the relevant jumper is set to the Line Out position.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 9 of 20, by 386SX

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megatron-uk wrote on 2021-02-12, 13:55:
386SX wrote on 2021-02-12, 13:49:

In terms of analog audio quality compared to their line-out power which were the best for ISA cards?

Me, or in general?

Out of the above, I'd say my Ultrasound Max was probably the cleanest in terms of audio quality. Pretty much every Soundblaster I've owned has been noisy... but you put up with it because 'Soundblaster', right? And they mostly 'just work' and don't need drivers.

Thanks, it was a question for everyone. Because from my test I found the Yamaha YMF7xx based cards to have very good output quality while the SoundBlaster AWE64 standard a very powerful output even if not exactly clean but it might depend also on the capacitor status, who knows which is good or not. Also I noticed much noise often come from the audio cable itself. From the game console SCART cables experienced I understood why double-shielded internal wires are so expensive to build seriously high quality cables for analog video and audio signals (RGB scarts for examples.. anyone that had or have a Genesis/Mega Drive console should know about it when video signal often disturb audio signal and taking a look to most scart cheap cables very few are well built imho).

Reply 10 of 20, by iVirtualZero

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-02-12, 14:15:

If low self-noise is what you're primarily interested in, the ESS AudioDrive 1868F cards are great in that aspect. Be advised that this may vary between different manufacturers.

In so far, I can only speak for my 1868F which is practically noise-free when the relevant jumper is set to the Line Out position.

Thanks, i prefer the clean outputs but i’m sure recapping the SoundBlaster with Audio Grade Nichicon caps would fix that problem. My SoundBlaster has a corrupt eeprom and i’m looking for a cheaper replacement and then will pick up the Orpheus card. Will check out the post as those cards are very affordable.

Reply 11 of 20, by iVirtualZero

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386SX wrote on 2021-02-12, 14:16:
megatron-uk wrote on 2021-02-12, 13:55:
386SX wrote on 2021-02-12, 13:49:

In terms of analog audio quality compared to their line-out power which were the best for ISA cards?

Me, or in general?

Out of the above, I'd say my Ultrasound Max was probably the cleanest in terms of audio quality. Pretty much every Soundblaster I've owned has been noisy... but you put up with it because 'Soundblaster', right? And they mostly 'just work' and don't need drivers.

Thanks, it was a question for everyone. Because from my test I found the Yamaha YMF7xx based cards to have very good output quality while the SoundBlaster AWE64 standard a very powerful output even if not exactly clean but it might depend also on the capacitor status, who knows which is good or not. Also I noticed much noise often come from the audio cable itself. From the game console SCART cables experienced I understood why double-shielded internal wires are so expensive to build seriously high quality cables for analog video and audio signals (RGB scarts for examples.. anyone that had or have a Genesis/Mega Drive console should know about it when video signal often disturb audio signal and taking a look to most scart cheap cables very few are well built imho).

I agree upgrading the cables do make a big difference. I’m primarily a console gamer. Love my retro setup. I use RGB Bypass mods with some of my system like the SMS, Megadrive, NES, SNES 1Chip, Gamecube with GCDual combined with the shielded RGB cables from RetroGameCablesUK going into the Extron Crosspoint Switcher/Otaku Scart Switch and then to the OSSC LineDoubler.

Reply 12 of 20, by 386SX

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iVirtualZero wrote on 2021-02-12, 14:32:

I agree upgrading the cables do make a big difference. I’m primarily a console gamer. Love my retro setup. I use RGB Bypass mods with some of my system like the SMS, Megadrive, NES, SNES 1Chip, Gamecube with GCDual combined with the shielded RGB cables from RetroGameCablesUK going into the Extron Crosspoint Switcher/Otaku Scart Switch and then to the OSSC LineDoubler.

I understand, I also had difficult time to find a simple Mega Drive to RGB Scart cables that didn't have that awful audio noise caused mostly by the video signal itself and I ended up solving with the only one that specified that double shielded solution and showed in the auction how it was built inside the SCART. I also had to modify it cause the 4:3 / 16:9 problem of some TVs that sometimes can't change depending on the cable scheme connections.
But I don't have the OSSC converter that is still expensive and I spent too much on the few games I wanted plus some wireless modern controllers.
Anyway I've got some Mega Drive and the SMS, while I had also many Game Gear consoles but most of them had problems even after changing capacitors. Unfortunately these ones weren't exactly built to last.

Reply 13 of 20, by iVirtualZero

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386SX wrote on 2021-02-12, 14:44:
I understand, I also had difficult time to find a simple Mega Drive to RGB Scart cables that didn't have that awful audio noise […]
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iVirtualZero wrote on 2021-02-12, 14:32:

I agree upgrading the cables do make a big difference. I’m primarily a console gamer. Love my retro setup. I use RGB Bypass mods with some of my system like the SMS, Megadrive, NES, SNES 1Chip, Gamecube with GCDual combined with the shielded RGB cables from RetroGameCablesUK going into the Extron Crosspoint Switcher/Otaku Scart Switch and then to the OSSC LineDoubler.

I understand, I also had difficult time to find a simple Mega Drive to RGB Scart cables that didn't have that awful audio noise caused mostly by the video signal itself and I ended up solving with the only one that specified that double shielded solution and showed in the auction how it was built inside the SCART. I also had to modify it cause the 4:3 / 16:9 problem of some TVs that sometimes can't change depending on the cable scheme connections.
But I don't have the OSSC converter that is still expensive and I spent too much on the few games I wanted plus some wireless modern controllers.
Anyway I've got some Mega Drive and the SMS, while I had also many Game Gear consoles but most of them had problems even after changing capacitors. Unfortunately these ones weren't exactly built to last.

Game Gears also have failing LCD’s due age and heat. As for the noise, it’s most likely the caps on the audio side. With the Triple Bypass (RGb Bypass+Megaamp) mod. Doesn’t cost much, add stereo to mono systems and it fixes this buzz/jailbar problem and can make a model 2 and 3 sound just as good as a Model 1 High Def Graphics version. It does require soldering skills, disables the headphone jack, uses a Genesis/Megadrive 2 style jack and you have to remove all of the caps on the audio side.

Reply 14 of 20, by chinny22

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Did you load soundfonts on the AWE? as no other (ISA) card will allow that.

Creative cards aren't known for quality line out so your expectations are not that high in this regard. That's not a bad thing as opens up more options. I'm no audiophiles and have no problem with "noisy" creative cards either.

Most people consider General Midi more important then AWE support, this opens up just about any soundcard with a wavetable header. the typical ones have already been mentioned

SB16 (which is all a AWE is just missing the EMU chip) or the Vibra16
ESS AudioDrive
Yamaha YMF

All can be had for good price if you wait, The Midi module will be the expensive part. The dream blaster is a pretty fair price if you want something now, or you can wait on ebay and hope to pick up a Yamaha DB50XG aka NEC XR385 at a good price (most common) External Midi modules like the Yamaha MU10 can be had for not stupid prices but then you add more wires possibly interfering with quality.

Reply 15 of 20, by iVirtualZero

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chinny22 wrote on 2021-02-12, 17:28:
Did you load soundfonts on the AWE? as no other (ISA) card will allow that. […]
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Did you load soundfonts on the AWE? as no other (ISA) card will allow that.

Creative cards aren't known for quality line out so your expectations are not that high in this regard. That's not a bad thing as opens up more options. I'm no audiophiles and have no problem with "noisy" creative cards either.

Most people consider General Midi more important then AWE support, this opens up just about any soundcard with a wavetable header. the typical ones have already been mentioned

SB16 (which is all a AWE is just missing the EMU chip) or the Vibra16
ESS AudioDrive
Yamaha YMF

All can be had for good price if you wait, The Midi module will be the expensive part. The dream blaster is a pretty fair price if you want something now, or you can wait on ebay and hope to pick up a Yamaha DB50XG aka NEC XR385 at a good price (most common) External Midi modules like the Yamaha MU10 can be had for not stupid prices but then you add more wires possibly interfering with quality.

I don’t think so as it’s happening on a fresh install of 98, just a loud pop static sound like a CRT losing its signal. I get no sound at all, so glad i didn’t pay a lot for this card. It may not even be repairable. Thanks for the info. I will be doing some research on those soundcards and the wave table modules. I mainly want something all in one that gets the job done and outlasts all the other soundcards. Which generally have all those components crammed onto it. This is why the Orpheus with the Dreamblaster X2 module is my first choice later down the line as the board doesn’t look as busy as my Soundblaster and performs just as well. If it’s still available. Many complain about the Crystal chip. But it doesn’t matter to me since i’m not much of an audio head, like the other guys and hell even my brother. Don’t notice the small differences, the audio heads point out and don’t understand, much of the technical talk. I’m more of a video head noticing shimmers, analogue noise etc. But to have something that is noob friendly and will handle what ever DOS game i throw at it, would be great. As long as it’s not too primitive with its performance.

Reply 16 of 20, by dionb

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iVirtualZero wrote on 2021-02-12, 20:09:

[...]

I don’t think so as it’s happening on a fresh install of 98, just a loud pop static sound like a CRT losing its signal. I get no sound at all, so glad i didn’t pay a lot for this card. It may not even be repairable. Thanks for the info. I will be doing some research on those soundcards and the wave table modules. I mainly want something all in one that gets the job done and outlasts all the other soundcards. Which generally have all those components crammed onto it. This is why the Orpheus with the Dreamblaster X2 module is my first choice later down the line as the board doesn’t look as busy as my Soundblaster and performs just as well. If it’s still available. Many complain about the Crystal chip. But it doesn’t matter to me since i’m not much of an audio head, like the other guys and hell even my brother. Don’t notice the small differences, the audio heads point out and don’t understand, much of the technical talk. I’m more of a video head noticing shimmers, analogue noise etc. But to have something that is noob friendly and will handle what ever DOS game i throw at it, would be great. As long as it’s not too primitive with its performance.

Tbh it's still not clear what you exactly mean by "performance".

What you are describing sounds more like an emphasis on compatibility, with low noise levels being 'nice to have'. It's not clear whether you actually used any of the advanced features of the AWE64.

For compatibility, what you want above all else is 100% hardware Soundblaster compatibility. AWE64 was ISA PnP, so if you were happy with that, another PnP card would be good too. Simplest solution would be a card with ESS1868 or Aztech AZT2330 chips. They tend to be cheap and very easy to work with. They don't have AWE or (usually) built-in wavetable, they don't support SB16 standard, but they give solid 100% SBPro2.0 compatibility, and if you want to play around with wavetable modules, they have bug-free MPU-401 (something no Creative Sound Blaster has). There is a very wide range of cards with ESS1868, from complete rubbish to very high-end. AZT2320 basically was only used by Aztech themselves. The cards are hardly Hi-Fi, but build quality is reliable and they're less noisy than most Sound Blasters (only the AWE64 Gold is significantly quieter).

Reply 17 of 20, by iVirtualZero

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dionb wrote on 2021-02-12, 21:33:
Tbh it's still not clear what you exactly mean by "performance". […]
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iVirtualZero wrote on 2021-02-12, 20:09:

[...]

I don’t think so as it’s happening on a fresh install of 98, just a loud pop static sound like a CRT losing its signal. I get no sound at all, so glad i didn’t pay a lot for this card. It may not even be repairable. Thanks for the info. I will be doing some research on those soundcards and the wave table modules. I mainly want something all in one that gets the job done and outlasts all the other soundcards. Which generally have all those components crammed onto it. This is why the Orpheus with the Dreamblaster X2 module is my first choice later down the line as the board doesn’t look as busy as my Soundblaster and performs just as well. If it’s still available. Many complain about the Crystal chip. But it doesn’t matter to me since i’m not much of an audio head, like the other guys and hell even my brother. Don’t notice the small differences, the audio heads point out and don’t understand, much of the technical talk. I’m more of a video head noticing shimmers, analogue noise etc. But to have something that is noob friendly and will handle what ever DOS game i throw at it, would be great. As long as it’s not too primitive with its performance.

Tbh it's still not clear what you exactly mean by "performance".

What you are describing sounds more like an emphasis on compatibility, with low noise levels being 'nice to have'. It's not clear whether you actually used any of the advanced features of the AWE64.

For compatibility, what you want above all else is 100% hardware Soundblaster compatibility. AWE64 was ISA PnP, so if you were happy with that, another PnP card would be good too. Simplest solution would be a card with ESS1868 or Aztech AZT2330 chips. They tend to be cheap and very easy to work with. They don't have AWE or (usually) built-in wavetable, they don't support SB16 standard, but they give solid 100% SBPro2.0 compatibility, and if you want to play around with wavetable modules, they have bug-free MPU-401 (something no Creative Sound Blaster has). There is a very wide range of cards with ESS1868, from complete rubbish to very high-end. AZT2320 basically was only used by Aztech themselves. The cards are hardly Hi-Fi, but build quality is reliable and they're less noisy than most Sound Blasters (only the AWE64 Gold is significantly quieter).

Didn’t mean to describe it like it’s a GPU. What i meant by performance was features, compatibility and clarity. Some soundcards do sound puffy. And no definitely didn’t use all of the features as i’m a bit of noob when it comes to soundcards and got a good deal on this AWE64. And certainly not purchasing the gold version. Which goes for 300 bucks at this point for a 20 plus year old card. I do indeed want a pnp card? Or easy to find drivers. Thanks for the extra recommendations. Will be sure to check them out.

Reply 18 of 20, by dionb

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iVirtualZero wrote on 2021-02-13, 00:00:

[...]

Didn’t mean to describe it like it’s a GPU. What i meant by performance was features, compatibility and clarity. Some soundcards do sound puffy. And no definitely didn’t use all of the features as i’m a bit of noob when it comes to soundcards and got a good deal on this AWE64. And certainly not purchasing the gold version. Which goes for 300 bucks at this point for a 20 plus year old card. I do indeed want a pnp card? Or easy to find drivers. Thanks for the extra recommendations. Will be sure to check them out.

For DOS, you don't need/want drivers - best compatibility is hardware compatibility, each game talks directly to the hardware. PnP means you do need to initialize the card with a utility (not a driver, it unloads itself after running). Non-PnP cards don't need that. You set resources once (via jumpers, dipswitches or an EEPROM config program), then those are your settings. But on a PCI system you do need to tell BIOS not to use them, so it's a bit more complicated. In any event, PnP init has gotten a lot simpler since UNISOUND - Universal ISA PnP Sound Card Driver for DOS v0.81b was released. Run that and you're good to go. No drivers needed with the options I mentioned earlier.

As for price of stuff: if you want something *NOW* and only look in one place (eBay), you'll pay for the privilege. WIth patience and dedication, you can find much better deals. I have an AWE64 Gold. It was an unexpected find in a really dirty PC I found on local classified ads and picked up for EUR 45. The PC also contained a Voodoo 3 3000 PCI (which was why I was picking it up in the first place). You don't see stuff like that every day - but keep looking and you're bound to find much better options than USD 300 on eBay. Your approach to buy a quick replacement now and from there on start looking long-term is a sound one.

Last edited by Stiletto on 2021-02-13, 23:25. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 19 of 20, by iVirtualZero

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dionb wrote on 2021-02-13, 00:20:
iVirtualZero wrote on 2021-02-13, 00:00:

[...]

Didn’t mean to describe it like it’s a GPU. What i meant by performance was features, compatibility and clarity. Some soundcards do sound puffy. And no definitely didn’t use all of the features as i’m a bit of noob when it comes to soundcards and got a good deal on this AWE64. And certainly not purchasing the gold version. Which goes for 300 bucks at this point for a 20 plus year old card. I do indeed want a pnp card? Or easy to find drivers. Thanks for the extra recommendations. Will be sure to check them out.

For DOS, you don't need/want drivers - best compatibility is hardware compatibility, each game talks directly to the hardware. PnP means you do need to initialize the card with a utility (not a driver, it unloads itself after running). Non-PnP cards don't need that. You set resources once (via jumpers, dipswitches or an EEPROM config program), then those are your settings. But on a PCI system you do need to tell BIOS not to use them, so it's a bit more complicated. In any event, PnP init has gotten a lot simpler since UNISOUND - Universal ISA PnP Sound Card Driver for DOS v0.81b was released. Run that and you're good to go. No drivers needed with the options I mentioned earlier.

As for price of stuff: if you want something *NOW* and only look in one place (eBay), you'll pay for the privilege. WIth patience and dedication, you can find much better deals. I have an AWE64 Gold. It was an unexpected find in a really dirty PC I found on local classified ads and picked up for EUR 45. The PC also contained a Voodoo 3 3000 PCI (which was why I was picking it up in the first place). You don't see stuff like that every day - but keep looking and you're bound to find much better options than USD 300 on eBay. Your approach to buy a quick replacement now and from there on start looking long-term is a sound one.

Thanks will definitely be on the look out when the Lockdowns are over. Mine is a AWE64 CT4380

Last edited by Stiletto on 2021-02-13, 23:26. Edited 1 time in total.