VOGONS


First post, by rarcher

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Good afternoon everyone, I have spent the past few days reading through the forums here for an answer to my topic, but nothing seems to quite satisfy me. So I figured I would make a topic on it.

As I have mentioned in my other thread about my IBM Valuepoint, my AWE64 took the last train west about two weeks ago and I'm currently using a SB Vibra 16s clone for now. It works, and is ok for my general needs of just simple sound testing, but ideally I would like eventually to have the capability to do more with it. Mainly early-mid 90s era Dos and Win 3.x gaming. I would prefer to find a card that is close to being a 'jack of all trades' of sorts, so I dont need to put in multiple sound cards or fuss with other things more then needed. A lot of other suggestions I read here on the forums suggested a SB Pro 2.0 or 16/32 usually but the better quality ones recommended are just overly pricey from the various sources I kept finding them for. Within the range of 90-100+ US Dollars.

So while reading through the threads I happened upon one thread mentioning this site/card/project http://www.pcmidi.eu/mk8330.html where they made a sort of all in one remake of many of the major card designs into one unit. I thought about getting one as it seems like it is quite up my ally of what I want. But can anyone give me more insight into how well this card operates and ease of use/capability rating in general? Or failing that suggest a more general run of the mill ISA card to buy? Any advice or insight would be welcome.

As an example of one game I would like look into playing would be the Star Trek PC Game A Final Unity. I had such working on my old packard bell 486 back in the day so I am confident this IBM will run it more then handily given this PC has more ram, and more video memory by almost 512kb then my Bell had. Running it with SB 16 sound worked fine.

Any how any input?

Reply 1 of 9, by dionb

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

The thing to understand is that there are different ways to make sound and that each card (apart from the very oldest) combine several of them to differing degrees of quality and compatibility. The fact that there are multiple new sound cards based on different chips and designs being made in the retro community proves there is no single "best at everything" card.

That said, the MK8330 ticks just about all the boxes:
- 1:1 OPL3 clone for FM synthesis ("AdLib")
- Soundblaster & Soundblaster Pro 2 support
- Soundblaster 16 support, including high DMA channel
- WSS support (although I'm not aware of any games that offer WSS that do not also offer SB16)
- bug-free MPU-401 UART MIDI for waveblaster daughterboards or external MIDI modules
- SPDIF digital output
- modern enthousiast-level design for low analog noise levels

Apart from the last point, this is all courtesy of the C-Media CMI8330 chip, which was a very late ISA design used back in the day on some awfully low-end cards and motherboards. I've only used mine a little bit, but it seems to do everything it should. I was previously a fan of the AudioExcel AV310 card with this same chip, and used that in my main DOS system a lot. The only compatibility issue I ever encountered was that I couldn't get digital audio in Ultima 7, but that is about the worst possible game to get working properly. I only ever succeeded with my Snark Barker, a 1:1 replica of the Sound Blaster 1.0.

The only other chip to offer similar feature set to the CMI8330 (just no SPDIF) is the Avance Logic ALS100 (non-plus!), a slightly older design, suffering from the same lack of good quality cards..

By comparison, the 'real' Soundblaster 16 cards all have some kind of MIDI bug (the AWE64 only has slowdowns when also playing 16b audio, anything older has some degree of hanging notes), they don't support WSS, newer ones have good noise levels, but no real-sounding OPL3 for FM, older ones have real OPL3 but frequently bad noise levels.

Reality-check though: by far the most DOS games that say "Soundblaster 16" still only use 8b 22kHz audio, and a lot of the ones that actually do use 16b audio also support WSS. That means that SB16 support is actually not that important in most cases. In that case there's a huge range of acceptable chips/cards with Aztech (AZT2316 and AZT2320) and OPTi (929 and 930) chipsets that offer real OPL3, SBPro2, WSS and bug-free MIDI and can be found pretty cheaply. I personally prefer the Aztech cards & chips, but others tend more towards OPTi, but they are very similar overall.

Now, focusing on your use cases:
DOS: see the mess above 😉
Win3.x: WSS is the relevant spec here, although anything with Win3.x drivers will basically work. Win3.x also has excellent MIDI support.

Star Trek A Final Unity:
This is a fun one - a 1993 game released in 1995, and it shows in the supported cards list; Ensoniq Soundscape, Gravis Ultrasound / ACE, Pro Audio Spectrum, Sound Blaster, Sound Blaster 16, Sound Blaster Pro. If you balk at Sound Blasters around USD 90-100, Soundscape and GUS are completely out of the question. Pro Audio Spectrum has some of the best 16b audio out there, but not much supports it, and its Sound Blaster support is just Sound Blaster (non-Pro, non-16), so no good as a 'jack of all trades' card. That leaves you SB16 or SBPro. If the game actually uses 16b audio, then that's a must-have for you, particularly if you remember running it with SB16 back in the day. If not, well, any SBpro-compatible would do the trick. I've not been able to find out what audio quality it uses.

Tbh, based on this - WSS nice-to-have for Win3.x and SB16 needed for best (affordable) Final Unity experience - either the ALS100 or CMI8330 still sound like the best single-card options, and the MK8330 is undoubtedly the best card with either chipset. If that's too expensive, look at anything else with those chipsets that fits your budget (just avoid the ALS100plus+ - as it lacks high DMA support for SB16).

Reply 2 of 9, by Joseph_Joestar

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
dionb wrote on 2022-08-19, 00:06:

- WSS support (although I'm not aware of any games that offer WSS that do not also offer SB16)

There are a couple of edge cases where using WSS is preferred over SB16.

One example is Aladdin which offers stereo music in SBPro and WSS mode, but only mono in SB16 mode. Cloudschatze kindly made a fix for this, so it's not a big deal anymore, but the original, unmodified game sounded best in WSS mode.

Certain Sierra games like King's Quest 6 and Gabriel Knight (CD versions) offer both WSS and Sound Blaster in setup. In my experience, WSS is less prone to crashes on faster systems and sounds ever so slightly cleaner to my ears. There are some third-party fixes for those games as well, but I haven't tested them yet. Turrican 2 also offers 48 kHz sampling in WSS mode, which is quite unique for a DOS game.

To the OP, Phil has a bunch of sound card reviews on his channel so you might want to check that out if you haven't already. The MK8330 is fairly new, so it doesn't have many reviews yet, but here's one from Rees.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 4 of 9, by Jura Tastatura

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

Also, nothing wrong with using multiple soundcards approach: one for SB/SBpro, another for SB16/WSS. Third one is GUS. 😁
Why go simple? 🤷‍♂️😅

Reply 5 of 9, by rarcher

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
Jura Tastatura wrote on 2022-08-21, 18:57:

Also, nothing wrong with using multiple soundcards approach: one for SB/SBpro, another for SB16/WSS. Third one is GUS. 😁
Why go simple? 🤷‍♂️😅

Why? For me its just to get the most out of the system without going hog wild on buying stuff. If I can get more or less everything i need at an acceptable level with one card then I'd prefer that 😀

Reply 6 of 9, by dionb

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
Jura Tastatura wrote on 2022-08-21, 18:57:

Also, nothing wrong with using multiple soundcards approach: one for SB/SBpro, another for SB16/WSS. Third one is GUS. 😁
Why go simple? 🤷‍♂️😅

Hey, you're forgetting CMS, Tandy, SSI-2001 and Covox/DSS (and an intelligent mode MPU-401 for your MT-32) 😜

If you want to dive down the rabbit hole, you can go as deep as you want - but OP is pretty clear he doesn't want to and if a single card can do what is needed, well, that's good enough. In fact after a while adding yet another obscure card/standard can be a bit of an anticlimax. The only thing I'd suggest adding to say an MK8330 is a wavetable daughterboard that can do as good an imitation of the SC-55 as possible, as good GM music really does add something to 16b DA. The Dreamblaster X2GS would be perfect.

Reply 8 of 9, by appiah4

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

MK8330 is the one-stop all-in-one card to have at this point. Ever since I put it in my main PC it has stayed there. And I have about ~100 sound cards I like to cycle through from time to time.. I just don't anymore.

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.