VOGONS


Reply 640 of 661, by vetz

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I'm pretty sure that we never saw the full potential on several of the early chips.

Just take the NV1, the performance and graphical differences on the releases are quite high, for instance the SEGA games perform and look alot nicer than other third party games. Don Goddard from Sega Technical Institute talked really highly of the card (see interview I did with him in 2012). For the Tasmania I think we never saw the potential as both of the bundled games suck.

3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)
3D Acceleration Comparison Episodes

Reply 641 of 661, by RaVeN-05

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I still hope Tasmania games will got dump to archive org as intended long ago.
And I hope you will return to YouTube.
Your videos outstanding and way to very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/user/whitemagicraven
https://go.twitch.tv/whitemagicraventv

Reply 642 of 661, by robertmo3

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Some games don't even have a youtube walkthrough (even in a cpu software mode)

tank commander
havoc
icehawk
purevex
nirgends

or mobygames screenshots from further levels
some don't even have a mobygames entry

Reply 644 of 661, by rasz_pl

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analog_programmer wrote on 2024-03-14, 03:20:

Most of the chips of the early 3D consumer videocards are not much worse than Voodoo1 add-on 3D card on paper, but 3dfx turned out to have the best drivers and support in win9x and games.

Above is somewhere between hilarious and disingenuous.
No filters, broken filters, ugly filters.
Missing essential blending modes, atrocious blending implementations (and I dont just mean stippled alpha).
Missing Z-buffer.
Abysmal performance when using basic features like blending or Z-buffering.
Inability to use all features at the same time.
Both texture and fillrate performance listed at flat non shaded non blended not textured not z buffered not subpixel corrected best case scenario vs 3DFX delivering 500-1000 K triangles 16bit color no matter the mode at steady 50 Mpixels/sec.

The only 3dfx contemporaries worth mentioning when it comes to actually deliverable performance were PowerVR and Rendition. The rest didnt count at all leaving Voodoo1 unchallenged until Nvidias second try.

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2024-03-14, 03:56:

These days lots of old games have source code available to help with direct optimization from that end, so it really comes down to whether the resources exist to either reverse engineer or work from source code to build better drivers for some cards. If a tiny driver team only had 6 months to a year to work on the 3D portion of a graphics driver AND communicate with game developers before they had to move on to the next thing it seems logical that over a longer period of time (a year or more), one or two hobbyists could understand that device better than the original developers ever had an opportunity to.

Things like Virge, Trident, Laguna3D, Mystique, Ati Rage are simply designed wrong, as a joke https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d696t3yALAY This is all gaming at ~10 fps with artifacts territory.

So the answer to your question is yes, but only for PowerVR and Rendition, and with limited success and huge difficulty.
First one delivers great performance using a neat trick and only in some narrow circumstances thanks to its non standard tiled rendering engine. The trick is to be smart and massage incoming triangle data to do as little actual rendering work as possible. Behaves best in deferred renderer scenarios or when presented with neatly prepared sorted front to back whole triangle buffer all at once. Game engines that draw world part after part object by object suffer a lot because PVR has no chance to optimize its data access patterns and is forced to draw everything.
Rendition is entirely different approach, its a Soft GPU. You need to write optimized firmwares per particular work load to extract maximum performance, like VQuake.

Afaik the secret of 3dfx performance was its brute force strength. 3dfx doesnt rely on any single data optimization trick, it just steamrolls all triangles/pixels thru its pipeline as is and only at the very end decides if already fogged shaded textured blended mip mapped pixel corrected pixel of a triangle passes Z-buffer or not. There is 5-20% performance difference between turning every single option (texturing, fog, shading, filtering, sub pixel) on or off. There is zero difference when enabling/disabling alpha blending and Z-buffer, those are free. You can feed 3Dfx triangles back to front all day long and performance wont budge. You dont have to worry about _any_ optimizations beyond spitting triangle coordinates to a Glide library and keeping to ~50Mpix fillrate and ~10K tringles per frame.

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Reply 645 of 661, by analog_programmer

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Yeah, le'me fill in with some 3dfx fanboy words "Voodo1/2/3... is killer, everything different s**ks!". Now, write something wonderful about wonderful Voodoo Rush masterpiece. Maybe later and for Voodoo Banshee marvel 😁

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Reply 646 of 661, by rasz_pl

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Voodoo Rush delivers 50-80% of normal V1 performance, which is orders of magnitude faster than Virge/Trident, and still faster & better looking than any Matrox/Ati at the time. It was only a bad product when compared to actually good ones like V1 or riva128.
The only people so hostile to 3dfx facts either missed 3dfx in the nineties or couldnt afford it ;]

Good thread showing what it takes to polish a turd, Rendition game in this case Test: Running Formula 1 on a Rendition Verité V2200: Works (fully functional) 5 months to get it working 😮

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 647 of 661, by analog_programmer

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So, it is not only a matter of hardware, but how it will be utilized. Isn't i?

We're having some sort of completely unnecessary dispute and the title even excludes 3dfx's Glide.

from СМ630 to Ryzen gen. 3
engineer's five pennies: this world goes south since everything's run by financiers and economists
this isn't voice chat, yet some people, overusing online communications, "talk" and "hear voices"

Reply 648 of 661, by RaVeN-05

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analog_programmer wrote on 2024-03-15, 00:12:

So, it is not only a matter of hardware, but how it will be utilized. Isn't i?

Yes, drivers crucial here, if one could rewrite them in assembly , we will got much more performance.

https://www.youtube.com/user/whitemagicraven
https://go.twitch.tv/whitemagicraventv

Reply 649 of 661, by rasz_pl

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RaVeN-05 wrote on 2024-03-15, 09:29:
analog_programmer wrote on 2024-03-15, 00:12:

So, it is not only a matter of hardware, but how it will be utilized. Isn't i?

Yes, drivers crucial here, if one could rewrite them in assembly , we will got much more performance.

No. We are spinning in circles here. Go back and read Re: 3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 650 of 661, by RaVeN-05

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They best for their own proprietary API, i don't care about OpenGL and Direct3D. With OpenGL or Direct3D go with other more powerful GPU's

https://www.youtube.com/user/whitemagicraven
https://go.twitch.tv/whitemagicraventv

Reply 651 of 661, by rasz_pl

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RaVeN-05 wrote on 2024-03-15, 10:40:

They best for their own proprietary API, i don't care about OpenGL and Direct3D. With OpenGL or Direct3D go with other more powerful GPU's

insensitive joke warning

This is like saying handicapped people are best at special Olympics as they are the ones with all the medals. Ignores the fact they are the only ones allowed to participate.

Nintendo RDP was the best GPU for Mario 64, until UltraHLE allowed ordinary PC with 3dfx run it better.

Those show some of the drawbacks of inferior graphic chips
3D Acceleration Comparison Ep11: Mechwarrior 2 - 3DFX / PowerVR / S3 Virge / ATI Rage / Matrox Mys - RetroCompaqGuy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWzWdwj9NvU
3D Acceleration Comparison Ep7: POD - 3DFX/PowerVR/ATI RAGE/S3 Virge/Direct3D/DirectDraw software - RetroCompaqGuy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU5Zi69QPQs

Original S3 Virge advertised 50Mpix fillrate, but could only deliver 1/10 when actually drawing textured polygons. One of the tricks used by games written/optimized for proprietary APIs was cutting all the nice to look at but expensive features like filtering, blending, lighting, texturing, Z-buffer, and finally number of polygons. S3d Actua Soccer port for example is limited to ~700 triangles per frame, and even that didnt help it all that much http://www-graphics.stanford.edu/~bjohanso/in … irge-study.html

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Reply 652 of 661, by analog_programmer

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In this 1/10 was true, imagine if it S3 ViRGE was properly optimized both in hardware and software and was giving 10/10 of what was advertised. It'd wipe out floor with well known 3D add-on card 😁

Now seriously, why don't you find another more appropriate thread that specifically discusses how great is the first 3D card of 3dfx?

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Reply 653 of 661, by RaVeN-05

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ok i said wrong this way "They best for their own proprietary API, i don't care about OpenGL and Direct3D. With OpenGL or Direct3D go with other more powerful GPU's"

let me say more definitive:

Those card valuable for games specially designed for them! Anything else no matters, wish opengl or direct3d? go by other cards. There is no reason to discuss something here, i am not interested.
Pointless bla bla bla.
Stay on Topic or open new one by yourself.
and PowerVR version of Mechwarrior 2 is superior.
Sorry if it hurts someone, for me conflicting is enough , i have so so much troubles and conflicts at those forums. I prefer to be quiet. Wish you all the best, i love you, don't ask me , no more.

https://www.youtube.com/user/whitemagicraven
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Reply 655 of 661, by rasz_pl

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analog_programmer wrote on 2024-03-15, 14:33:

Now seriously, why don't you find another more appropriate thread that specifically discusses how great is the first 3D card of 3dfx?

Thats a weird thing to say by a person who started talking about 3dfx in _No 3DFX_ thread in the first place:

analog_programmer wrote on 2024-03-14, 03:20:

Most of the chips of the early 3D consumer videocards are not much worse than Voodoo1 add-on 3D card on paper, but 3dfx

"Projection is the process of displacing one's feelings onto a different person, animal, or object. The term is most commonly used to describe defensive projection—attributing one's own unacceptable urges to another."

Real talk, are you HighTreason610 by any chance? 😀

RaVeN-05 wrote on 2024-03-15, 14:46:

Those card valuable for games specially designed for them! Anything else no matters

Even better if we have a wrapper for proprietary api, like https://github.com/ata4/glrage. Afaik with this wrapper ATI port becomes the best original Tomb Raider version to play of them all, at least until Tomb Raider I–III Remastered released two months ago.

RaVeN-05 wrote on 2024-03-15, 14:46:

and PowerVR version of Mechwarrior 2 is superior.

Same for PowerVR version of Tomb Raider. Great looking 1024x768 at 20-30fps. PVR was legit good.
Tomb Raider (1996) - 3Dfx Glide vs. PowerVR SGL (PCX2) - knackmeister https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GMesT4WKzI

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Reply 656 of 661, by deltashadow

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vetz wrote on 2012-09-20, 04:17:

This is a list of accelerated games for all early 3D accelerators, EXCEPT 3DFX and Direct3D!



Hello vetz,

1) If there any lists about early D3D or OpenGL games?
2) It would be interesting to add these list somewhere. If they exists please somebody send me a link. Or if not maybe i could make one.
3) Idea is to compare number of games for each API on the launch.
4) For example we could add:
- aT3D, Laguna3D and 3DImage and number of D3D games available on its launch.
- split proprietary API's games from your list by date - before and after video card launch.
- add Permedia 1 (what was other early OpenGL cards? Rage 2?) and OpenGL games on launch date
- and of cause Glide - split games by date and find how many games were available on launch of Voodoo 1 and launch of Voodoo 2 for example

Reply 658 of 661, by vetz

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deltashadow wrote on 2024-03-21, 12:44:
Hello vetz, 1) If there any lists about early D3D or OpenGL games? 2) It would be interesting to add these list somewhere. If […]
Show full quote
vetz wrote on 2012-09-20, 04:17:

This is a list of accelerated games for all early 3D accelerators, EXCEPT 3DFX and Direct3D!



Hello vetz,

1) If there any lists about early D3D or OpenGL games?
2) It would be interesting to add these list somewhere. If they exists please somebody send me a link. Or if not maybe i could make one.
3) Idea is to compare number of games for each API on the launch.
4) For example we could add:
- aT3D, Laguna3D and 3DImage and number of D3D games available on its launch.
- split proprietary API's games from your list by date - before and after video card launch.
- add Permedia 1 (what was other early OpenGL cards? Rage 2?) and OpenGL games on launch date
- and of cause Glide - split games by date and find how many games were available on launch of Voodoo 1 and launch of Voodoo 2 for example


1. Not that I know about
2. The Direct3D list would be massive, and I'd guess the most interesting ones are the releases in 1996 and 1997 when Direct3D was in its infancy and most of the times inferior to Glide and PowerSGL.
3 and 4. It's an idea I've been contemplating as well, but sometimes it's hard to identify the release dates. Also games back then would be released at different dates around the world.

3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)
3D Acceleration Comparison Episodes

Reply 659 of 661, by deltashadow

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vetz wrote on 2024-03-28, 08:18:
1. Not that I know about 2. The Direct3D list would be massive, and I'd guess the most interesting ones are the releases in 199 […]
Show full quote
deltashadow wrote on 2024-03-21, 12:44:
Hello vetz, 1) If there any lists about early D3D or OpenGL games? 2) It would be interesting to add these list somewhere. If […]
Show full quote
vetz wrote on 2012-09-20, 04:17:

This is a list of accelerated games for all early 3D accelerators, EXCEPT 3DFX and Direct3D!



Hello vetz,

1) If there any lists about early D3D or OpenGL games?
2) It would be interesting to add these list somewhere. If they exists please somebody send me a link. Or if not maybe i could make one.
3) Idea is to compare number of games for each API on the launch.
4) For example we could add:
- aT3D, Laguna3D and 3DImage and number of D3D games available on its launch.
- split proprietary API's games from your list by date - before and after video card launch.
- add Permedia 1 (what was other early OpenGL cards? Rage 2?) and OpenGL games on launch date
- and of cause Glide - split games by date and find how many games were available on launch of Voodoo 1 and launch of Voodoo 2 for example


1. Not that I know about
2. The Direct3D list would be massive, and I'd guess the most interesting ones are the releases in 1996 and 1997 when Direct3D was in its infancy and most of the times inferior to Glide and PowerSGL.
3 and 4. It's an idea I've been contemplating as well, but sometimes it's hard to identify the release dates. Also games back then would be released at different dates around the world.



I've made an infographics after your post.
It shows visually the number of games for each API.
This is preliminary. I aligned launch dates to timeline grid.
One game = one cell.
For each API we have 2 pieces: left piece shows launch titles.
Right piece shows all games released after launch.

PS: maybe you know how many games were game for Midas3? If there launch titles or games made before PCX1.

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