DVI/DOS problem

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DVI/DOS problem

Postby buckeye » 2018-6-06 @ 15:35

Currently have a AGP GF3/V2 SLI combo setup where the GF3's DVI and V2's VGA hook up directly to the monitor's matching ports - no loop cable. Problem is when running a dos game in a window the screen goes black/GF3 shuts off the feed. I can get it to work with the GF3's VGA fine but how do I fix the DVI problem?

The card is a Abit Siluro Geforce3 Ti200 64MB AGP. I've read elsewhere that Geforces can have this problem, can anyone recommend an alternative DVI card that may work better?
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Re: DVI/DOS problem

Postby Jo22 » 2018-6-06 @ 22:43

I'm not 100 percent sure, but I believe DVI is 60Hz/120Hz/240Hz only.
So some DOS games -those using 320x200 mainly-, won't work via DVI, since they rely on 72Hz/75Hz/.. refresh rates.
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Re: DVI/DOS problem

Postby firage » 2018-6-06 @ 23:26

No such limitation with DVI itself.

Maybe the display doesn't support the output mode? Bit strange, as NVIDIA will usually resample and force the monitor's default mode, AFAIK.
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Re: DVI/DOS problem

Postby The Serpent Rider » 2018-6-07 @ 02:36

DVI on GeForce 3 is provided via separate chip from Silicon Image.
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Re: DVI/DOS problem

Postby darry » 2018-6-07 @ 04:11

By
buckeye wrote:Problem is when running a dos game in a window the screen goes black/GF3 shuts off the feed.

do you mean in full screen mode with Windows running in the background or in an actual window under Windows ?

Either way, does switching back and forth between full screen and windowed mode with Alt-Enter fix the problem ?
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Re: DVI/DOS problem

Postby buckeye » 2018-6-07 @ 14:49

darry wrote:By
buckeye wrote:Problem is when running a dos game in a window the screen goes black/GF3 shuts off the feed.

do you mean in full screen mode with Windows running in the background or in an actual window under Windows ?

Either way, does switching back and forth between full screen and windowed mode with Alt-Enter fix the problem ?


I haven't tried Alt-Enter, will do and post result. For Duke Nukem 3D setup runs fine in window mode/under windows but when starting the game the video shuts off and got a black screen with sound.

Maybe try a DVI/VGA adapter?
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Re: DVI/DOS problem

Postby lvader » 2018-6-07 @ 15:40

It’s down to the implementation of the DVI on the graphics card, the DVI version of the Voodoo 5500 is great in the regard.
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Re: DVI/DOS problem

Postby buckeye » 2018-6-13 @ 16:19

Ok, some other observations on this issue:

ALT-Enter doesn't help.
Switched to a GF2 with dvi and same issue exists, using it's VGA works no problem.
After installing the GF2 I noticed when booting the text is off center vertically, can't see dos prompt at the bottom.
Playing Duke3D in Dos the screen is off center to the left and the right side is "distorted" with vertical lines.
Tried messing with options on the monitor but in DVI hor/vert adjustments and the like are "greyed" out, using VGA most options are accessible.
Have it currently set in 4/3 ratio & game mode.
The monitor in question is an Asus VS247.

Currently using Nvidia drivers 29.42, perhaps go older or newer?
What about utilites such as Powerstrip, Display Doctor, Univbe, UniRefresh? Have not tried them yet, afraid I might screw something up - worse.

Please if anyone can advise on this it would help me sleep at night, thanks ahead for any comments.
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Re: DVI/DOS problem

Postby Tree Wyrm » 2018-6-13 @ 20:09

DVI is hit and miss in those early cards, some of which were produced before spec was finalized and technically did not conform to it resulting in unexpected and quirky behavior. I have a few cards like that and it's kinda fascinating to me, but for practical purposes there aren't that many cards which do things right. To put it simple for Nvidia cards you'd generally want to go with something like GF4 where it works as expected. Although not in a way you personally may want, meaning it automatically stretches original image to display preferred resolution (provided via EDID) ignoring aspect ratio and using bilinear filtering which results in a somewhat blurry image overall. There's S3 Savage4+ card made by N9 for IBM which has DVI output and that one is interesting because it completely ignores EDID, typical text mode (720x400) ends up being letterboxed into 1024x78 without any upscaling, while typical VGA 320x200 is line-doubled into 640x480 with letterboxing above and below. Voodoo 5500 MAC is also notable for ignoring EDID, but those are rare and ridiculously expensive. So in conclusion analog VGA will be most compatible but it'll have natural downsides of being analog and support for analog signal in modern displays can be a hit and miss as well, some do it okay while others are notorious at handling it. Another approach would be to use GF4 (or above) with EDID ghosting device (startech has one) in-between where you can pick any valid resolution and ignore what display wants.
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Re: DVI/DOS problem

Postby buckeye » 2018-6-13 @ 20:27

Tree Wyrm wrote:DVI is hit and miss in those early cards, some of which were produced before spec was finalized and technically did not conform to it resulting in unexpected and quirky behavior. I have a few cards like that and it's kinda fascinating to me, but for practical purposes there aren't that many cards which do things right. To put it simple for Nvidia cards you'd generally want to go with something like GF4 where it works as expected. Although not in a way you personally may want, meaning it automatically stretches original image to display preferred resolution (provided via EDID) ignoring aspect ratio and using bilinear filtering which results in a somewhat blurry image overall. There's S3 Savage4+ card made by N9 for IBM which has DVI output and that one is interesting because it completely ignores EDID, typical text mode (720x400) ends up being letterboxed into 1024x78 without any upscaling, while typical VGA 320x200 is line-doubled into 640x480 with letterboxing above and below. Voodoo 5500 MAC is also notable for ignoring EDID, but those are rare and ridiculously expensive. So in conclusion analog VGA will be most compatible but it'll have natural downsides of being analog and support for analog signal in modern displays can be a hit and miss as well, some do it okay while others are notorious at handling it. Another approach would be to use GF4 (or above) with EDID ghosting device (startech has one) in-between where you can pick any valid resolution and ignore what display wants.


Interesting, guess that's why most have multiple iterations of dos/win98 systems.

Guess I can fetch a GF4 or a big mutha of a CRT. Wonder if a 19" 5:4 LCD would make a difference being sort of retro?
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Re: DVI/DOS problem

Postby firage » 2018-6-15 @ 06:10

In Windows, unlike DOS, you should have pretty good control over the DVI's behavior via software. Make sure you're GPU scaling the output if your display won't take the game's full screen mode (NVIDIA's default in pure DOS), although then analog VGA is preferable to avoid distorting and glitching out some games in that case.
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Re: DVI/DOS problem

Postby buckeye » 2018-6-15 @ 13:45

Thanks firage, you got me thinking I do have it set in windows as monitor scaling as the other options (GPU & don't remember the other) didn't look right as screen ratio is set at 4:3 also thru the monitor. Maybe if I set the scaling by GPU first and then try and adjust the ratio by the monitor it will help matters?

The only other solution I can come up with given my current hardware is forget DVI and go all out with VGA. This will mean getting a higher grade "passover" cable for my Voodoo2's since the one I have causes weird "vertical lines overlay". Anyone have a "go to" brand for these?
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Re: DVI/DOS problem

Postby firage » 2018-6-16 @ 14:16

Just adding NVIDIA's brief documentation on this basic feature here, pages 74-75 in http://download.nvidia.com/Windows/28.3 ... sGuide.pdf ("Device Adjustments: Digital Flat Panel")

Not much in the way of aspect ratio control in this example, so relying a bit on the display's handling of the selected desktop display mode there. This implementation might also ignore desktop settings as the target and always scale straight to EDID defaults? :/


Forcing 60Hz at the video card will probably mess up several DOS games that were coded specifically for 70Hz and rely on that timing. (And vice versa.)

How LCD's handle 70Hz varies quite a bit, and it's not really documented at all sufficiently. Some can show the faster refresh rate (sometimes out of spec), some, like my older IPS, drop frames to draw the 70Hz signal at 60Hz, and some are crappy enough not to show a picture at all. (While presumably still having to support some way to handle 70Hz via analog VGA...)

At maxed out desktop resolutions, single-link DVI bandwidth can also limit you to 60Hz at most.
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Re: DVI/DOS problem

Postby buckeye » 2018-6-18 @ 13:28

firage wrote:Just adding NVIDIA's brief documentation on this basic feature here, pages 74-75 in http://download.nvidia.com/Windows/28.3 ... sGuide.pdf ("Device Adjustments: Digital Flat Panel")

Not much in the way of aspect ratio control in this example, so relying a bit on the display's handling of the selected desktop display mode there. This implementation might also ignore desktop settings as the target and always scale straight to EDID defaults? :/


Forcing 60Hz at the video card will probably mess up several DOS games that were coded specifically for 70Hz and rely on that timing. (And vice versa.)

How LCD's handle 70Hz varies quite a bit, and it's not really documented at all sufficiently. Some can show the faster refresh rate (sometimes out of spec), some, like my older IPS, drop frames to draw the 70Hz signal at 60Hz, and some are crappy enough not to show a picture at all. (While presumably still having to support some way to handle 70Hz via analog VGA...)

At maxed out desktop resolutions, single-link DVI bandwidth can also limit you to 60Hz at most.


Upon reading this noticed that monitor scaling (in the example) is "grayed out". In my case it's active, due to my monitor being capable of different settings or modes as shown below?

3.4 Supported Timing List
VESA / IBM Modes Support Timing (D-SUB, DVI-D, HDMI inputs)
Resolution Refresh Rate Horizontal Frequency
640 x 350 70Hz 31.469KHz
640 x 480 60Hz 31.469KHz
640 x 480 67Hz 35KHz
640 x 480 75Hz 37.5KHz
720 x 400 70Hz 31.469KHz
800 x 600 56Hz 35.156KHz
800 x 600 60Hz 37.879KHz
800 x 600 72Hz 48.077KHz
800 x 600 75Hz 46.875KHz
848 x 480 60Hz 31.02KHz
1024 x 768 60Hz 48.363KHz
1024 x 768 70Hz 56.476KHz
1024 x 768 75Hz 60.023KHz
1152 x 864 75Hz 67.5KHz
1280 x 720 60Hz 44.772KHz
1280 x 800 60Hz 49.702KHz
1280 x 960 60Hz 60KHz
1280 x 1024 60Hz 63.981KHz
1280 x 1024 75Hz 79.976KHz
1366 x 768 60Hz 47.712KHz
1440 x 900 60Hz 55.935KHz
1680 x 1050 60Hz 65.29KHz
1680 x 1050 60Hz 64.674KHz
1920 x 1080 60Hz 67.5KHz
1920 x 1080 60Hz 66.587KHz

I'm extremely tempted to get a Geforce4 Ti of some sort and see if it makes a difference. Yep my OCD is kicking into warp drive!
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