Integrated Mach64 vs. Anything Else \ VOGONS

Integrated Mach64 vs. Anything Else

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First post, by viper32cm

Posted on 2020-04-22, 02:31

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I'm building a late-DOS/Win 3.x build around a Pentium 100 similar to the Packard Bell system I had in middle school. Much like that old PB system, the computer I'm using as a base has an LPX-motherboard with an integrated 1MB PCI video card.

The PB system had a Cirrus Logic GD-5430, which I recall had some highly annoying incompatibility issues with Fleet Defender and US Navy Fighters.
The system I'm working with now has an ATI Mach64, which works but my research shows that it's not the fastest.

So I'm considering using something other than the Mach64 in this new build. The candidates are the Cirrus Logic GD-5446, Matrox Millenium, and the TSENG ET6000. I know the S3 Trio is an option as well, but I'm leery of the video quality issues some of those cards have.

The TSENG is obviously going to be the most expensive of the candidates but likely, generally , the fastest in most situations. Is it worth it compared to Mach64 or the others?
With the GD-5446, I'm concerned about the same compatibility issues I had with the GD-5430.
Finally, the Matrox seems like a good option, faster than the Mach64, but I'm not sure how it compares to the others.

Reply 1 of 15, by darry

Posted on 2020-04-22, 02:36

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See https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/ for an idea about compatibility .
Matrox cards have great picture quality and decent DOS performance (Millennium and Mystique onward).

Reply 2 of 15, by Anonymous Coward

Posted on 2020-04-22, 02:40

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The S3 Trio and Virge cards that I've tried from STB seem to have pretty good image quality.

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Reply 3 of 15, by darry

Posted on 2020-04-22, 02:48

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Anonymous Coward wrote on 2020-04-22, 02:40:

The S3 Trio and Virge cards that I've tried from STB seem to have pretty good image quality.

Agreed . The ones from good brands had decent output . Nothing wrong with the chips, just some implementations .

Even some of the cheap ones were decent . My bargain basement old Virge 325 back in the day was quite sharp. Its predecessor, a bargain basement Trio 64V+, was not that great .

EDIT : I'm trying to remember who made my first generation Savage 3D, its output was decent too on a Viewsonic PT775 .

Reply 4 of 15, by viper32cm

Posted on 2020-04-22, 02:54

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darry wrote on 2020-04-22, 02:48:
Agreed . The ones from good brands had decent output . Nothing wrong with the chips, just some implementations . […]
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Anonymous Coward wrote on 2020-04-22, 02:40:

The S3 Trio and Virge cards that I've tried from STB seem to have pretty good image quality.

Agreed . The ones from good brands had decent output . Nothing wrong with the chips, just some implementations .

Even some of the cheap ones were decent . My bargain basement old Virge 325 back in the day was quite sharp. Its predecessor, a bargain basement Trio 64V+, was not that great .

EDIT : I'm trying to remember who made my first generation Savage 3D, its output was decent too on a Viewsonic PT775 .

That makes sense. There are a decent number of Diamond Trio cards on ebay at the moment. Would that be a fairly safe bet?

Reply 5 of 15, by darry

Posted on 2020-04-22, 02:57

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viper32cm wrote on 2020-04-22, 02:54:

darry wrote on 2020-04-22, 02:48:
Agreed . The ones from good brands had decent output . Nothing wrong with the chips, just some implementations . […]
Show full quote

Anonymous Coward wrote on 2020-04-22, 02:40:

The S3 Trio and Virge cards that I've tried from STB seem to have pretty good image quality.

Agreed . The ones from good brands had decent output . Nothing wrong with the chips, just some implementations .

Even some of the cheap ones were decent . My bargain basement old Virge 325 back in the day was quite sharp. Its predecessor, a bargain basement Trio 64V+, was not that great .

EDIT : I'm trying to remember who made my first generation Savage 3D, its output was decent too on a Viewsonic PT775 .

That makes sense. There are a decent number of Diamond Trio cards on ebay at the moment. Would that be a fairly safe bet?

Diamond was a well regarded brand . Fun fact : they ended up buying S3 .

Reply 6 of 15, by BSA Starfire

Posted on 2020-04-22, 07:24

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I've had great results with Number 9 manufactured S3 cards, the image quality is very good on those. Have both a Virge 325 and trio 64 based ones here in use.

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Reply 7 of 15, by chinny22

Posted on 2020-04-22, 10:42

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I'm not going to disagree that the Mach64 isn't fast but on a P100 running Dos/3.x PC its not going to make a notable difference IMHO.
any games that don't run well will be due to the CPU and the few FPS gained wont compensate for that.
I've got one in my DX2/66 and a Virge in a POD83 gameplay wise they are about the same if I'm honest with myself.

although If it's to chase benchmark scores then the upgrade is worth it I guess.

Reply 8 of 15, by viper32cm

Posted on 2020-04-22, 23:11

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I bought a Diamond-branded S3Trio64V+ today based on the recommendations here. It will be faster and, most importantly, more compatible than the Mach64.

Reply 9 of 15, by Errius

Posted on 2020-04-22, 23:31

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I had this situation a few years ago and tested the integrated 1 MB Mach64 verses PCI 4 MB Matrox Millennium and 32 MB Millennium G450 cards.

The difference was not great. Quake demo frame rates ranged from 41 with the Mach64 to 49 with the G450, with the 4 MB Millennium somewhere in the middle. I ended up keeping the 4 MB Millennium.

Is this too much voodoo?

Reply 10 of 15, by Anonymous Coward

Posted on 2020-04-23, 00:13

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Mach32 and Mach64 should never be used with 1MB of memory. They both use 64-bit datapath between the VPU and memory, so if you have 1MB installed the memory is only in 32-bit mode, crippling performance. The same applies to most 64-bit cards like the Trio.

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Reply 11 of 15, by viper32cm

Posted on 2020-04-23, 13:41

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The Trio I bought has the additional RAM modules already installed. I had toyed with the idea of upgrading the video RAM on the integrated Mach64, but a new card seems like a better idea.

Reply 12 of 15, by aaronkatrini

Posted on 2020-04-23, 13:58

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I don't know if you've seen this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_5suEoXTc8&t=107s
It might help decide. I agree with Phil on this, the Cirrus Logic 5446 also gets my vote. It's performance is very good, compatible with many games and it can be obtained easily.
Also the S3 is a valid option, however there is a 20-30% chance that it might have the black bleaching problem. As for an ISA card, it go with a Tseng 4000AX.

Reply 13 of 15, by viper32cm

Posted on 2020-04-23, 22:53

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aaronkatrini wrote on 2020-04-23, 13:58:

I don't know if you've seen this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_5suEoXTc8&t=107s
It might help decide. I agree with Phil on this, the Cirrus Logic 5446 also gets my vote. It's performance is very good, compatible with many games and it can be obtained easily.
Also the S3 is a valid option, however there is a 20-30% chance that it might have the black bleaching problem. As for an ISA card, it go with a Tseng 4000AX.

We'll see. If the S3 has bad colors, I can harvest the RAM chips for my integrated Mach64 or buy a CL5446. Hopefully it's a good one.

Reply 14 of 15, by darry

Posted on 2020-04-23, 22:58

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viper32cm wrote on 2020-04-23, 22:53:

aaronkatrini wrote on 2020-04-23, 13:58:

I don't know if you've seen this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_5suEoXTc8&t=107s
It might help decide. I agree with Phil on this, the Cirrus Logic 5446 also gets my vote. It's performance is very good, compatible with many games and it can be obtained easily.
Also the S3 is a valid option, however there is a 20-30% chance that it might have the black bleaching problem. As for an ISA card, it go with a Tseng 4000AX.

We'll see. If the S3 has bad colors, I can harvest the RAM chips for my integrated Mach64 or buy a CL5446. Hopefully it's a good one.

There a tiny TSR you can run to fix that issue .
Re: S3 AGP Cards (and possibly others) Too Bright

Reply 15 of 15, by viper32cm

Posted on 2020-05-10, 21:03

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viper32cm wrote on 2020-04-23, 22:53:

We'll see. If the S3 has bad colors, I can harvest the RAM chips for my integrated Mach64 or buy a CL5446. Hopefully it's a good one.

The system is together and running. I don't see anything wrong with the colors. Looks good!

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