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Rendition Verite Thread

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Reply 460 of 479, by tincup

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Warlord wrote:

are there any specific games that just look or play better on rendition. Or exclusive rendition titles that are worth playing.,

The one I know is IndyCar Racing 2 (aka CART Racing) - the Rendition version. I built a Verite retro box a few years ago just to finally see how it looked. Well, it looks great, and it was one the earliest serious racing simulators in true 3D. The other big sim title NASCAR Racing got a Glide 3dfx patch but ICR2 didn't stick around long enough to get anything other than the Rendition release treatment. At the tiime Glide ruled the roost so there was no reason to go Verite. So the Rendition version of ICR2 had to wait 2 decades before I finally saw it.

Reply 462 of 479, by Ozzuneoj

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Ozzuneoj wrote on 2018-07-13, 15:38:

Does anyone have the original CDs that came with the Canopus Total3D Verite? I picked up one of these cards recently and I've been playing with it. I also managed to find a pair of 3D shutter glasses that are (apparently) the same as the ones that Canopus bundled with the card, but I'm not sure where to find the games that actually work with this card in stereo 3D.

Also, I have an odd problem with the card. When I start Windows 98SE with the command prompt or restart in DOS mode, everything looks normal but the bottom line of text (the line I type on) will be invisible once the screen has had to scroll at least one line. When I type there is nothing there, but hitting enter shifts everything up a line and I can see the command I typed, but the new prompt is still invisible. It isn't a screen alignment issue. There is plenty of space, and it shows the last line as long as the screen hasn't had to scroll yet. But once I hit enter and it scrolls all of the lines up, the last line is now invisible and I can't see what I'm typing. What would cause this? Its very strange.

Just wanted to give a small update after two years. I just tried this card on a different monitor and it is fine! In fact, I tried two LCDs (a 1280x1024 Dell and a 1024x768 Viewsonic) and they show all text totally normally. I hooked it back up to my big beautiful 21" CRT and the bottom line does not show in DOS... it's like it just won't display the bottom line of text itself, not that the display is sized incorrectly or something. The CRT monitor is reporting the vertical refresh rate as 70.9HZ. When I hook it up to one of my LCDs it says 720x400 at 71Hz. Is it possible that this is some really oddly specific refresh rate issue? I can push the card to what are relatively crazy resolutions and refresh rates for 1996 (1024x768 at 100Hz) and it works fine. It uses a Brooktree RAMDAC, but I've never seen an issue like this with one before, or any other card for that matter.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Time Machine = FIC PA-2013 2.1 - K6-2 500 - 256MB PC-100 - TNT2 Pro 16MB AGP - Labway Yamaha YMF719-E - Midiman MM401

Reply 463 of 479, by janskjaer

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As this seems to be the combined general Rendition thread, I'll put this here.

I wanted to ask Verite V2200 owners what driver version they are commonly using? In terms of features, performance, reliability, and compatibility (older Speedy3D and early versions of the RRedline API) is there a specific driver version that covers all?

I've recently been playing with both the Hercules Thriller 3D driver and the Rendition reference v3.0 beta5 drivers on my QDI Legend AGP. Although I do find varying results from these drivers on my different Verite cards (PCI and AGP), I found that the v3.0 beta 5 seems to offer more features (Alpha Blending in WizMark, hardware recognition in Final Reality), improved stability (less crashing in vQuake) and better OpenGL performance (faster frames in Quake II and exponentially better scores in 3DMark99 MAX).

One drawback I did notice is that the v3.o beta 5 display settings applet does not retain any changes made. For example, I can disable vsync and when saving, exiting and going back to the applet, I can see the change is retained. However, once I reboot, the changes are lost (vsync is re-enabled).

What are your thoughts on the best driver version?

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DELL Dimension XPS M200s
:Intel Pentium MMX 200MHz
:64MB RAM
:MS-DOS 6.22 / Win95b
:Matrox Millenium II PCI
:Matrox m3D (PowerVR PCX2)
Chaintech Apogee 7VJL Apogee
:AMD Athlon XP 2800+
:3GB RAM
:Win98SE / Win2000 SP4
:3Dlabs Oxygen VX1 32MB AGP 4x

Reply 464 of 479, by swaaye

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There's some in-depth look into V2200 drivers over at Vintage3D.
https://vintage3d.org/verite2.php

I think that the "best driver" depends on what you want to run on the card. 😀 As you saw the 3.0 Beta drivers add features but can cause problems too. Though I think one could say all of the drivers for the card are beta level at best.

Reply 465 of 479, by yawetaG

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tincup wrote on 2019-12-15, 02:09:
Warlord wrote:

are there any specific games that just look or play better on rendition. Or exclusive rendition titles that are worth playing.,

The one I know is IndyCar Racing 2 (aka CART Racing) - the Rendition version. I built a Verite retro box a few years ago just to finally see how it looked. Well, it looks great, and it was one the earliest serious racing simulators in true 3D. The other big sim title NASCAR Racing got a Glide 3dfx patch but ICR2 didn't stick around long enough to get anything other than the Rendition release treatment. At the tiime Glide ruled the roost so there was no reason to go Verite. So the Rendition version of ICR2 had to wait 2 decades before I finally saw it.

Well, there always is the regular DOS version that is also in true 3D but instead uses the main CPU for all rendering. Just keep in mind that using a full 40 car field plus all of the textures turned on, SVGA, etc. takes a bit more than the 486 DX2 66MHz they list in the manual. Fortunately it also runs fine on something like a Pentium II...

Reply 466 of 479, by Gona

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I agree with swaaye. Originally I have used the last one released by Hercules (Version 0.85.3596 / TH3DW085.EXE / 1998-Apr-04). But I have used the card primarily for Direct3D and the v3.0 beta5 driver is much faster and have much better picture quality in Direct3D so I have switched to the v3.0 beta5 driver.
Later I have tested the released and beta versions from the SDK package but the released version is the same ugly as the Hercules one, and the beta version have big problems in D3D so this is the worst one. Now I have tested in D3D the v3.0 beta3 and D3D picture quality looks the same as beta5.
So I think for usually the v3.0 beta5 driver is the best. If you find problems with RRedline you should try an older one (TH3DW085.EXE or "released" driver from the SDK package).
Here are the picture quality images:

1998-04-04_Hercules_0.85.3596_-_3DMark_99_IQ07I_Last.png
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1998-09-10_SDK_release_-_3DMark_99_IQ07I_Last.png
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1998-12-15_SDK_beta_-_3DMark_99_IQ07I_Last.png
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1999-04-23_v3.0_beta3_-_3DMark_99_IQ07I_Last.png
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1999-05-10_v3.0_beta5_-_3DMark_99_IQ07I_Last.png
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Videocard compatibility matrix for DOS games | ATI 3D CIF compatibility matrix | CGL API compatibility matrix | Ati drivers for Mac OS Classic | Commodore monitor informations and compatibility

Reply 467 of 479, by janskjaer

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Wow! That image quality is a big difference. It was something I wasn't even aware of. I'll check that out in my 3DMark and 3D Winbench image quality results, as I've already ran benchmarks for both the Hercules driver and v3.0 beta5.

DELL Dimension XPS M200s
:Intel Pentium MMX 200MHz
:64MB RAM
:MS-DOS 6.22 / Win95b
:Matrox Millenium II PCI
:Matrox m3D (PowerVR PCX2)
Chaintech Apogee 7VJL Apogee
:AMD Athlon XP 2800+
:3GB RAM
:Win98SE / Win2000 SP4
:3Dlabs Oxygen VX1 32MB AGP 4x

Reply 468 of 479, by swaaye

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That test is checking for texture size support beyond 256x256. A Voodoo3 would look bad too for example but it doesn't really matter for the games you'll play on the card. It's cool that Rendition was able to increase the limit though.

Reply 469 of 479, by Gona

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So it can exist that the driver has bad image quality in resolution 256x256 but good in 640x480?

Videocard compatibility matrix for DOS games | ATI 3D CIF compatibility matrix | CGL API compatibility matrix | Ati drivers for Mac OS Classic | Commodore monitor informations and compatibility

Reply 470 of 479, by swaaye

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Sure. 256x256 is far beyond texture dimensions in N64 games and there are some N64 games that are render at or near 640x480. 😀 N64 developers also demonstrated ways to work around such limitations.

It's interesting that V2200 was initially limited but it wasn't a hardware limit.

Reply 471 of 479, by Gona

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Intreresting. Why they put 256x256 testing into the 3DMark?
I have made other tests.
It seems the three beta drivers are not compatible with VQuake2. I got this error message.

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The two older are works without problems with VQuake2.
Direct3D is most problemous on the oldest beta driver, and have problems with the two non-beta drivers and v3.0beta5 too.
So for Direct3D I recommend v3.0beta3, and for RRedline one of the older, non-beta one.

Videocard compatibility matrix for DOS games | ATI 3D CIF compatibility matrix | CGL API compatibility matrix | Ati drivers for Mac OS Classic | Commodore monitor informations and compatibility

Reply 472 of 479, by Putas

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Gona wrote on 2020-05-28, 21:45:

Intreresting. Why they put 256x256 testing into the 3DMark?

Back in 1999 the industry was getting ready for textures of higher resolution. Voodoo3 notably did not, and caught some criticism for that.
It is likely 3DMark wanted to make very obvious demonstration how features can affect image quality. Although high res textures were still quite futuristic.
Aren't you confusing texture resolution with display resolution?

Reply 473 of 479, by Gona

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Putas wrote on 2020-05-29, 05:21:

Aren't you confusing texture resolution with display resolution?

Thank you. Yes, I have confused the texture resolution and the display resolution. I have thought that 256x256 what a small, but now, what a big! 😀

Videocard compatibility matrix for DOS games | ATI 3D CIF compatibility matrix | CGL API compatibility matrix | Ati drivers for Mac OS Classic | Commodore monitor informations and compatibility

Reply 474 of 479, by Garrett W

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Some games actually made use of higher res textures than most 3D accelerators supported at the time. MDK comes to mind, which makes the software version preferable to the Glide and D3D version on most cards. I think it used 512x512 textures?
Funnily enough, MDK2 which was created by a different studio is also one of the first accelerated games to really showcase higher res textures on cards that supported them. The loading screens are a dead giveaway, they are supposed to be very crisp, but on the Voodoo3 for example they are much lower resolution.

Reply 475 of 479, by tincup

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yawetaG wrote on 2020-05-27, 10:24:
tincup wrote on 2019-12-15, 02:09:
Warlord wrote:

are there any specific games that just look or play better on rendition. Or exclusive rendition titles that are worth playing.,

The one I know is IndyCar Racing 2 (aka CART Racing) - the Rendition version. I built a Verite retro box a few years ago just to finally see how it looked. Well, it looks great, and it was one the earliest serious racing simulators in true 3D. The other big sim title NASCAR Racing got a Glide 3dfx patch but ICR2 didn't stick around long enough to get anything other than the Rendition release treatment. At the tiime Glide ruled the roost so there was no reason to go Verite. So the Rendition version of ICR2 had to wait 2 decades before I finally saw it.

Well, there always is the regular DOS version that is also in true 3D but instead uses the main CPU for all rendering. Just keep in mind that using a full 40 car field plus all of the textures turned on, SVGA, etc. takes a bit more than the 486 DX2 66MHz they list in the manual. Fortunately it also runs fine on something like a Pentium II...

But have you actually *seen* the Rendition version of ICR2? Frankly it's incredible - especially compared to the DOS and W95 versions - which are fine but pale in comparison. I built the rig just to find out and glad I did. Only downside is that it's the *only* game that I have that has any need for Rendition exclusively. Which is why it's paired with a Voodoo 2 - but all the same - I have only one game that needs Rendition to shine.

Reply 476 of 479, by Stiletto

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tincup wrote on 2020-06-04, 03:21:

But have you actually *seen* the Rendition version of ICR2? Frankly it's incredible - especially compared to the DOS and W95 versions - which are fine but pale in comparison. I built the rig just to find out and glad I did. Only downside is that it's the *only* game that I have that has any need for Rendition exclusively. Which is why it's paired with a Voodoo 2 - but all the same - I have only one game that needs Rendition to shine.

Hopefully there's an emulator or wrapper someday...

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do the Fandango!" - Queen

Stiletto

Reply 477 of 479, by yawetaG

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tincup wrote on 2020-06-04, 03:21:
yawetaG wrote on 2020-05-27, 10:24:
tincup wrote on 2019-12-15, 02:09:

The one I know is IndyCar Racing 2 (aka CART Racing) - the Rendition version. I built a Verite retro box a few years ago just to finally see how it looked. Well, it looks great, and it was one the earliest serious racing simulators in true 3D. The other big sim title NASCAR Racing got a Glide 3dfx patch but ICR2 didn't stick around long enough to get anything other than the Rendition release treatment. At the tiime Glide ruled the roost so there was no reason to go Verite. So the Rendition version of ICR2 had to wait 2 decades before I finally saw it.

Well, there always is the regular DOS version that is also in true 3D but instead uses the main CPU for all rendering. Just keep in mind that using a full 40 car field plus all of the textures turned on, SVGA, etc. takes a bit more than the 486 DX2 66MHz they list in the manual. Fortunately it also runs fine on something like a Pentium II...

But have you actually *seen* the Rendition version of ICR2? Frankly it's incredible - especially compared to the DOS and W95 versions - which are fine but pale in comparison. I built the rig just to find out and glad I did. Only downside is that it's the *only* game that I have that has any need for Rendition exclusively. Which is why it's paired with a Voodoo 2 - but all the same - I have only one game that needs Rendition to shine.

Yeah, I saw screenshots a long time ago. But I just found this nice video that compares both side to side:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV3DRebD38g

Also, check out this site:

https://www.icr2.net/

ICR2 has tons of user-made contents available, including circuits, 40-car skins (you'll need one if you want to use all 40 cars), and even alternate car models...

Reply 478 of 479, by tincup

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yawetaG wrote on 2020-06-04, 05:54:
Yeah, I saw screenshots a long time ago. But I just found this nice video that compares both side to side: […]
Show full quote
tincup wrote on 2020-06-04, 03:21:
yawetaG wrote on 2020-05-27, 10:24:

Well, there always is the regular DOS version that is also in true 3D but instead uses the main CPU for all rendering. Just keep in mind that using a full 40 car field plus all of the textures turned on, SVGA, etc. takes a bit more than the 486 DX2 66MHz they list in the manual. Fortunately it also runs fine on something like a Pentium II...

But have you actually *seen* the Rendition version of ICR2? Frankly it's incredible - especially compared to the DOS and W95 versions - which are fine but pale in comparison. I built the rig just to find out and glad I did. Only downside is that it's the *only* game that I have that has any need for Rendition exclusively. Which is why it's paired with a Voodoo 2 - but all the same - I have only one game that needs Rendition to shine.

Yeah, I saw screenshots a long time ago. But I just found this nice video that compares both side to side:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV3DRebD38g

Also, check out this site:

https://www.icr2.net/

ICR2 has tons of user-made contents available, including circuits, 40-car skins (you'll need one if you want to use all 40 cars), and even alternate car models...

yep - great game. The video is cool but doesn't really convey the difference as perceived on screen. I played the DOS and Win versions a lot but was really blown away when I finally got a look at the accellerated 3D version years later. More effective and immersive than the first 3dfx Glide patch for NASCAR racing that came out around time - which was a game changer in it's own right, though nothing will probably match the OMG moment of seeing 3dfx Quake the first time. *That* sold me on 3D. But Rendition ICR2 still holds up.

Reply 479 of 479, by yawetaG

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tincup wrote on 2020-06-04, 18:37:
yawetaG wrote on 2020-06-04, 05:54:
Yeah, I saw screenshots a long time ago. But I just found this nice video that compares both side to side: […]
Show full quote
tincup wrote on 2020-06-04, 03:21:

But have you actually *seen* the Rendition version of ICR2? Frankly it's incredible - especially compared to the DOS and W95 versions - which are fine but pale in comparison. I built the rig just to find out and glad I did. Only downside is that it's the *only* game that I have that has any need for Rendition exclusively. Which is why it's paired with a Voodoo 2 - but all the same - I have only one game that needs Rendition to shine.

Yeah, I saw screenshots a long time ago. But I just found this nice video that compares both side to side:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV3DRebD38g

Also, check out this site:

https://www.icr2.net/

ICR2 has tons of user-made contents available, including circuits, 40-car skins (you'll need one if you want to use all 40 cars), and even alternate car models...

yep - great game. The video is cool but doesn't really convey the difference as perceived on screen. I played the DOS and Win versions a lot but was really blown away when I finally got a look at the accellerated 3D version years later. More effective and immersive than the first 3dfx Glide patch for NASCAR racing that came out around time - which was a game changer in it's own right, though nothing will probably match the OMG moment of seeing 3dfx Quake the first time. *That* sold me on 3D. But Rendition ICR2 still holds up.

I think the fact that it's a great, realistic racing car simulation really helps it with holding up. There are tons of driving games that look a lot better, but drive like crap (often with too much emphasis on drifting).

And it also has one advantage over many modern racing simulators (even those used by the pros): realistic car shape damage. Okay, it shares that one with some other Papyrus racing games...